A few words about users reputation

[lamarca]

@Shpankov said in A few words about users reputation:

Just one small question: what's the reason of starting this discussion?

No idea.

[pafflick]

@raed said in A few words about users reputation:

Too many people seem to perceive what they do not agree with as rudeness.

No, they don't perceive it as rudeness. Sometimes they just vote against an idea that is bad in their opinion (for example). People give their votes (whether "up" or "down") for many various reasons.

@raed said in A few words about users reputation:

A recent post got -11 votes, despite the fact that the poster had one please in the title, and three please and one plea in the post itself, yet the post was perceived as rude.

No, I don't think it was perceived as rude. It was downvoted mainly because the idea in that post seemed bad for many. That poster asked for not making something that many users came here for in the first place. A terrible idea if you ask me...

Should he try a different approach like eg. making a request for a "lite" version of Vivaldi, without all of the "superfluous" features, but alongside the "full" version of the browser, he surely would've received upvotes instead, by asking basically for the same thing.

@raed said in A few words about users reputation:

And not so long ago a guy got -4 votes because he said in his first post on the forum that the ui was good but the logo was ugly and hoped for a new logo design, needless to say the guy never posted again.

It doesn't surprise me that it got downvoted. That post lacked constructive criticism, the poster didn't say anything about why the logo is "ugly", how could it be improved or anything... Just a short, rude (yes, it was rude) comment: "it's ugly, make a new one". Such comments are of no use to anyone, hence the downvotes from users who apparently didn't appreciate that guy's "contribution".

Now, I'll try to explain why it was rude (in my opinion, but I think that many others would agree). Let's suppose that you're a painter. You've made a painting and I come to take a look. Now, if I paid you to make that painting, I can have my expectations. If I say something like: "it's ugly, I don't like it, make a new one" - that comment will probably be of no use to you, it won't be polite, but it will be somehow justifiable (I pay, I demand). But if I'm just a bystander, such comment would not only be useless, it would also be rude.
Obviously, somebody has put a lot of effort to make that painting (or to make that logo). If you don't like it, that's fine. But if you don't have anything actually useful to say about your opinion, then you should probably just keep it to yourself. And if you feel the urge to share that opinion nonetheless, then be prepared to receive some negative responses as well...

[luetage]

@rkzn said in A few words about users reputation:

Of the two threads mentioned here, that supposedly got a negative vote balance because the OP was rude, I really disagree. They may have been harsh and a bit snarky, but they really got downvoted because they pointed flaws to "the beloved browser", so the "faithful followers" took offence. So yes, users are getting downvotes, and losing "reputation points" just for having a minority opinion.

That's exactly the crucial point here. People don't just visit to shit on Vivaldi –– they sign up because they are genuinely interested. Some apparently need to let some steam off; let them. I would even see it a bit differently: We are the minority here, the minority of dedicated Vivaldi users and we shouldn't alienate common/potential Vivaldi users with a barrage of downvotes. It doesn't help anyone and no one benefits.

On one hand Vivaldi seriously lacks users, on the other everything is fine and nothing bad will ever happens… Truly, I don't think we can make a big difference, but every little bit helps – hopefully.

[pafflick]

@raed said in A few words about users reputation:

Chasing away potential customers for expressing their aesthetic opinions over certain elements that make up the browser, is bad for one's business regardless what business one is in, or how that business generates its income.

On one hand - it's true. On the other hand - it's a little bit different scenario here. That second post wasn't downvoted by the Vivaldi staff members. It was downvoted by some members of the community. But it was also upvoted by some other members (including one moderator) - probably in order to counteract the negative impact of those downvotes.

So, who's chasing who for expressing their opinions here? Should we allow some people to express their negative opinions while denying others the right to do the same? Would that be fair?

See, my point is - it's not that simple. We don't want to restrict people from expressing their thoughts, but they have to be aware that a public forum doesn't work in the same way as a customer support chat. If you're being rude or throw your negative opinions everywhere (without supporting them with anything) - you're allowed to do that (to a reasonable extent, of course). But you also have to be prepared to face the consequences of your behaviour - such as the negative responses from other users, for example. Just like in real life...

Have you ever run a business? If you did and it performed well, then I'm sure it was not because of those few customers who criticized it without saying anything actually useful and then never came back. Nobody wants to scare off the new customers, but if it would be at the cost of losing some of the loyal ones, then you really have to think things through ten times before you make a decision. Nevertheless, I'm glad we can have this conversation.

[jamesbeardmore]

@pafflick said in A few words about users reputation:

@raed said in A few words about users reputation:

Too many people seem to perceive what they do not agree with as rudeness.

No, they don't perceive it as rudeness. Sometimes they just vote against an idea that is bad in their opinion (for example). People give their votes (whether "up" or "down") for many various reasons.

This is the very issue I tried to raise earlier. The reason for an upvote is normally very straightforward. However, the problem with downvotes is that people give them for different reasons. Some use it because they simply disagree with a point. Some use it as a "moderation" tool (i.e. abusive language etc). In both cases, the effect on a user's reputation is bad. This is why I think downvotes are a bad idea and shouldn't be related to user reputation. If people can't agree on a consistent rule for applying downvoting, it should be either removed, or there should be two types of downvote: one for general disagreement (which doesn't affect reputation) and one for reporting rudeness/abusiveness/etc (which does affect reputation).

A user that posts 100 genuine and polite thoughts would be an active user who genuinely cared about the browser and community - but if 60 of those comments/thoughts/ideas were disagreed with, the user could get a bad reputation that they perhaps didn't deserve.

The inconsistency of what people believe merits a downvote, needlessly damages users reputations and discourages new posters, if they don't instantly have a brilliant comment that everyone likes, on their very first post.

[jamesbeardmore]

Just for the record - I originally didn't used to use voting, but I now upvote freely and never downvote. That said, I wouldn't miss it if voting disappeared altogether. I think the clearest, easiest-to-use, and most harmonious system would simply be to have a "thank you" button and a "report abuse" button. I think this was one of the ideas @rkzn suggested above.

[Gaëlle]

Thanks everyone for sharing your input. We’ve weighed in the pros and cons and decided to remove the downvotes. We also feel it’s more aligned with our values of having a friendly community.
Cheers from sunny Oslo, Gaëlle & Vivaldi Team

[luetage]

@gaelle I wanted to downvote your post, but I can't

[A Former User]

@gaelle Are you going to make more changes? The button and free space look like they shouldn't be there:
text text [button] text [free_space] text
What is worse: I don't know how would it look normally

[Pesala]

@Gwen-Dragon Not really.

The votes in favour and against removing the downvote option in this thread are evenly balanced.

Changing the existing status quo really needs more than a casting vote to be worth doing. There are clearly pros as well as cons to downvoting.

The removal of the silent downvote option will probably result in more flame-wars and more flags for moderators to deal with.

[luetage]

@Pesala That's true, but this wasn't a vote. The team got input from the community and then decided on their own.

[Pesala]

@luetage If they decided on their own, without considering the balance of those in favour and those against, then it is not a good decision, which is my point.

If there was a clear majority, say 60% in favour of removing the downvotes, then it could be considered a fair decision.

[luetage]

@Pesala Why would this be an unfair decision? Vivaldi is not a democracy, we have benevolent leaders ^^

[hlehyaric]

@luetage We have Community Managers and they …euh… manage the community. That's what they are paid for, aren't they?

[Catweazle]

If I like a comment, habitually I puncture in the upvote, if it dislikes me with much usually express it with my response.
I find therefore a good decision to remove the option of the downvote.
Anyhow it was an option that does not take place in a forum of technical support of a product, where many users only enter for a consultation or for having some problems with Vivaldi and where an evaluation of his posts, if they are not expressly interesting or that they have a valuable suggestion, lacks any transcendency

[A Former User]

And may I ask where is the click-to-view-upvoters (/downvoters)?

[lamarca]

@potmeklecbohdan by hoovering the number .............

[Ornorm]

@potmeklecbohdan Indeed, it is missing now. You can only see the first who did upvote but the rest is included into others...

[luetage]

@Ornorm It was only useful for looking up downvotes anyway… I guess they would have removed it either way. Who knows, maybe there's still a way to access the popup, no one has probed it yet.

[pafflick]

@Pesala said in A few words about users reputation:

The removal of the silent downvote option will probably result in more flame-wars and more flags for moderators to deal with.

I think we should rather wait and see how it develops. I'd be more careful about making any judgments at this moment. Give it a few months at least and then we'll see what changed and what did not.