No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.

[Komposten]

@Pathduck Hahaha, I didn't even glance at the page so I completely missed that it wasn't FLoC-related.

[code3]

@dude99 said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

Eventually, advertisers can still force this on everyone by demand floC to become mandatory for all websites they sponsoring (just like Youtube).

Opt outs are required by law.

[Catweazle]

@code3 , this in any case will happen in pages with European regulations, but in the rest of the world it would not be so sure.
Anyway, it is best to get as far as possible from the influence of Google, although in some services it is really difficult, for example YouTube does not have an alternative that offers this content that it has, but you can use Front-Ends like Invidious or Desktop clients like Freetube, who hit trackers with the door in their noses.
Instead of GMaps you can use Open StreetMap, but StreetView? I have not found any valid alternative yet
The same with some other services out there.
Time the developers and FOSS Communities scramble to create the missing valid alternatives.

And Vivaldi still has Google Image search in the context menu, which also irritates me a bit.

[LorenAmelang]

@Komposten Duh! Thank you for pointing out how I contaminated my tests...

I wonder if interest-cohort=() really does put you in a null cohort, or if it will come to be recognized as a cohort of privacy fanatics?

https://github.com/WICG/floc/blob/main/README.md
Exploring that I see that what I read here as "Permissions-Policy: interest-cohort=()" is not the "equals zero" it absolutely looks like on my (Windows scaled) screen, but "equals leftParen space rightParen". So it should be taken as null rather than zero. But what third-party .js does with it is anyone's guess.

https://github.com/WICG/floc/issues/61
A browser extension can inject javascript into pages that the user visits and therefore read the value. An extension could also overwrite the document.interestCohort() API and return a different value.

https://github.com/WICG/floc/issues/33
Issue #61 points out that a browser extension will be able to obtain the user's cohort by injecting a script that calls interestCohort. There are legit reasons for an extension to be able to get the cohort (see #17). However an extension might inject such a script into a page that does not already call interestCohort and opt the page into FLoC training.

What I'm missing is how this interestCohort on a particular page relates to the eventual interestCohort into which the visitor is placed. I suppose it is handled by some opaque algorithm? Would it really look at a single number rather than the actual content of the page?

[code3]

@Catweazle Yeah, but they often spread to other parts of the world. And even if Google puts up a fight about opt-out, it would be trivial to put V users in empty cohort, which I doubt G will mess with.
I do use privacy redirect, you could look at mapbox for independent street view.

[Shagohod660]

Just installed Vivaldi. Being based off of Chromium but having a customizable UI is what I wanted. The tab stacking and tab tile are my favorite features.

[mi1400]

chrome android doesn't want to show tab count above 99 (instead smiley), it doesn't (without debug/hacks) want to let u export android tabs, no bloat cleaning options (or sdmaid etc access) except clearing to blank zero, no 'share' option in pop-up of long pressing urls, youtube's stats for nerds cannot be enabled permanently if i want to save/worship their career related ad videos.. but still they want to shove such crap down our throats.. dear Google plz livk daily ur own "dont be evil" jargon.. huh

[dude99]

@Komposten said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

Why use a less optimal advertising technique, unless it provides another source of revenue (say, trade in personal information) that's large enough to cover the loss in ad revenue and the cost of the personalisation technology?

1. China, remember the dragonfly thingy Google try to made? FloC would be the ultimate wet dream for CCP. LOL

2. Control. Yes, Google are not satisfied with just monetize you with Ads, they want to know all about you & then offer your subconscious to the highest bidder. Oh, wait. They already doing that...

3. The Great Reset. Whatever you believe it really is, it will involve large amount of personal data to become a reality. And what's better way to make it possible than turning everyone web browser into a malware that send all personal data to whoever wanted it by default?

[dude99]

@code3 said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

Opt outs are required by law.

Sure. If you want to access all website, then get floC. Else you can opt out & stare at a lot of loading screen or a broken mess that plaster with warning "Please enabled floC for complete experience."

This will be like "Your inferior lousy browser are not supported, upgrade to G Chrome now!" ads that appear all over the Internet. /s

[Catweazle]

@code3 , yes, Mapbox has something like the Streetview, but it's for Android or car navis, apart it's paid, the free version is very limited compared to maps. I don't see it as a real alternative.
I also have Privacy Redirect, but half the time the corresponding public instances of the alternatives do not work, this is the problem with self hosted applications, when you do not do it yourself, then it depends that the one that has hosted it is also online.
@dude99 , this danger really exists, but I think, as it is said here, where there is a law, there is also a trap. Not so long ago when Vivaldi still appeared in the UA string, we had precisely this message often on screen, so the Vivaldi Team sacrificed the name in the UA string and since then we have not had this problem again. I'm sure there's a restriction on the FLoC, there'll also be people pulling countermeasures to trap it.

[dude99]

@Catweazle

Not so long ago when Vivaldi still appeared in the UA string, we had precisely this message often on screen, so the Vivaldi Team sacrificed the name in the UA string and since then we have not had this problem again.

So now Vivaldi have 0% visible global market share?
Smells like bullying & stifle of competition to me, & this is extremely bad for Vivaldi in long run, because they are simply turning away from the problem by sacrificing their growing potential. But I guess Vivaldi have no choice but to put up with this bullying since Google is one of their source of income...

I'm sure there's a restriction on the FLoC, there'll also be people pulling countermeasures to trap it.

Cat & mouse game, malicious innovation begat never ending of annoyance & timewaster. This will probably end up like popup window, notification, Do not track, & 3rd party cookies that bloating "modern" browser with obsolete features no one wanted.

UBlock Origin should become a default extension for all modern browser before Google kill it with manifest v3. It took so long for adblocker to be integrated into Vivaldi, I fear FLoC will cause even greater damage if no one dare to KILL it before it spread it's tentacles to everywhere.

[Catweazle]

@dude99 , yes, obviously we did not like the decision to remove V from the UA, but even so V is taken into account in the world and, despite currently having only a market share of few percentages, it is often mentioned together with the greats of the market, Chrome, FF, Opera and Safari , much more than others that have a greater diffusion.
Apart from sacrificing the Vivaldi name at the UA for the benefit of users, it says a lot about the philosophy of this company to put the user's interests before their own and is one of the reasons why I fully support them, not only for a unique browser.

[dude99]

@Catweazle Anywhere I can find Vivaldi's market share other than Vivaldi's own report? A few % of global market share sounds really high, according to https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share Edge only have 3-4%, Opera is still around 2%, & FF is slowly sinking way below 4%.

[Priest72]

I find that these statistics can be woefully inaccurate.
Some users for example can change the user agent string.

If vivaldi is identifying as chrome then the vivaldi usage stats can never be 100% accurate and vice versa.
Chrome could be gaining more usage figures when in fact it could be other chromium based browsers being used.

[code3]

@dude99 said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

Sure. If you want to access all website, then get floC. Else you can opt out & stare at a lot of loading screen or a broken mess that plaster with warning "Please enabled floC for complete experience."
This will be like "Your inferior lousy browser are not supported, upgrade to G Chrome now!" ads that appear all over the Internet. /s

Umm... I don't think you realize what I'm talking about.

1. In many countries, areas/regions/states, an opt-out is legally required. For instance, Google was forced to make an opt-out for Google Analytics. The opt-out does not stop you from using any websites. Many ad companies have made the opt-out called AdChoices. It doesn't work so well but ad companies can't make webpages not work because you opted out, it is against the law.

2. FloC also has the concept of an "empty cohort". This is for people who, in Google's view, would have a cohort that gives away sensitive info. Vivaldi could just place us in the empty cohort.

[dude99]

@Priest72 said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

I find that these statistics can be woefully inaccurate.

Yes. They are just guesswork, thus we use 'em as guideline to calculate browser's growth instead of absolute fact.

Chrome could be gaining more usage figures when in fact it could be other chromium based browsers being used.

That's exactly what's happening. GC got an artificial boost in support for almost everything Internet because of this. Then, other chromium browsers continue to locked in "unsupported" disadvantage because webmasters & software developers can't "see" their actual market share. For example: IDM refuse to support Vivaldi officially because they deem it insignificant in user base.

[dude99]

@code3 said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

The opt-out does not stop you from using any websites.

I understand that. But that doesn't stop 'em from using dark pattern design to coerce visitor into accepting FLoC. They will give minimal support to those opt out of FLoC (if any at all), intentionally make you stuck at loading for minutes while hinting at you FLoC user are have much better experience! Or simply bar you from certain functions that "doesn't work without FLoC". But at the end, the website still "works" for everyone, just slightly different.

The Laws only required website to work or functional for all, so advertisers aren't stupid enough to request webmaker to block user out right. But they will make you jump through hoops, make you suffer enough in daily basis until you give in eventually.

Take a look at Chromium's cookies UI design. It does works, yes? But it's designed intentionally to punish those who refuse to accept all cookies, the UI are a hassle to whitelist/blacklist individual cookies. And the end result is most people just give up & let advertisers exploit them via cookies.

---

FloC also has the concept of an "empty cohort"

If you think I'm racist by calling someone nigger, then what's the different when I replaced "nigger" label with something sounds better, like "Color Human", but still treat those I labeled as Color Human in distain?

FLoC is a discrimination system, it label you & group you together with similar group of people, then treat you all differently than other groups of people. It's not just about seeing different ads, it can hide things from you, or even feed you different version of (mis)information than someone else.

Also, FLoC can be tweak, alter & manage by people at any time. Just like Google & Youtube algorithm, it might start out in pure intention to mitigate discrimination, but when "some people" begin to tweak the algorithm, it evolved into the mess we are in today. FLoC is no different, it will end up the same. A.I. is nothing but tools that follow commands, so when it's guided by malicious intention it will corrupt.

[Catweazle]

@dude99, this is why it is urgent to promote alternative products to Google and get as far away from this company as possible. This is the only way, when losing customers, that Google gives up these activities. As in all harmful products, only the user himself can end up with these, by stopping consuming them, politicians cannot be expected to do so.
Although I think, by the EC's own regulations, at least here, Google will not be able to put these 'inventions', but in many other countries.

[Catweazle]

@guigirl , I agree, but it does not mean that I continue to promote the use of alternatives where I always can.
Even Vivaldi, although quite 'un-gargled', still depends too much on the Dark Tower, even taking it in the contextual menu (click on a image, search with G, opens G search) and depending on the Store, which squeaks me a lot, like finding a spider in the cafe.

[dude99]

@Catweazle This is what I worry about.

Today's Google ain't the old Google anymore, it have insert itself into Biden's White house. God knows what they can do from within with that senile old man... Also, G Chrome have become too big to fail, they may loss few millions users for months, but they will survive & continue to push ahead in the name of maximize profits.

Unless, there is a proactive group of noises loud enough to generate a social stigma around FLoC like dragonfly, tweeter, or CNN, then Google might have to put it on the back burner until they manage to repacked it. But currently I don't see it would happen that way, cuz everyone just try to avoid FLoC & not to upset the big G too much.