Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?

[Aaron]

A classic drool question

[Eggcorn]

@ingolftopf In my limited experience: Desktop environment matters a lot more than distribution.

[Catweazle]

@ingolftopf l , distros in general are not as beginner friendly as Windows when it comes to file handling, but you don't need to be a CERN scientist to get your head around them pretty quickly.
Of course there are also differences in the different distros. For a novice in the Linux world, perhaps one of the best alternatives could be Q4OS (Debian), with a UI very similar to Windows, it can even be installed as if it were a simple application with a Windows installer.
One step further is WindowsFX (LinuxFX), which perfectly mimics the Windows 10/11 UI, and even allows you to use Windows programs.

[Eggcorn]

@Catweazle said in Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?:

One step further is WindowsFX (LinuxFX), which perfectly mimics the Windows 10/11 UI, and even allows you to use Windows programs.

Nothing wrong with a Windows-like desktop environment, for people who want that. But to officially call the product "WindowsFX", and use the Windows logo the way they do on their website: That's unprofessional and misleading! It makes it look like it's Windows, not Linux.

[DoctorG]

@Eggcorn A OS producer who steals designs and logos, violates others property, and pretends his Linux to be a replacement for Windows 11 is not really a serious.

[Catweazle]

@Eggcorn , I have only added it to show the spectrum of the different distros to allow use for the most reluctant newbies.
Personally, I think that Q4OS is the most appropriate distro for a novice to enter the Linux world, showing that Debian does not have to be difficult to handle for a user accustomed to Windows.
A few years ago, also as a Linux newbie, I used Kubuntu and I don't remember having a problem using it right away.

[Eggcorn]

@DoctorG "Not really serious" is an understatement! It's like the coworker who steals other people's lunches. The real problem isn't your lunch disappearing from the refrigerator, but the sticky-fingered coworker doing more serious underhanded things!

In other words: This unprofessionalism makes me instantly distrust this so-called "Windows"FX.

[Aaron]

To learn Linux, you must first completely forget everything about Windows
Going into Linux with Windows habits is a disaster
I've seen too many people with root accounts doing everything

[Catweazle]

@Aaron , it depends on what you want to use it for, if, as perhaps most users use an OS for what it is, as a platform to navigate, some office automation and little else, deep down it is irrelevant if you use it as you would use Windows, in this case all OS are handled identically.
When I used Kubuntu for a few years, the only difference with Windows that I have noticed was the handling of files and directories, although I have not seen it as 'alien' either.
I also did not have to use the console, more than a few times, which on the other hand is not so different from the Windows one and only differs from the commands used.

[npro]

@Catweazle said in Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?:

which on the other hand is not so different from the Windows one and only differs from the commands used.

ehm yes it is, in Linux being UNIX-like (and the de-facto "modern" UNIX for some 20+ years) the terminal/console is an integral part of the OS (teletype terminals in the '70s) so you can reach the deepest depths of the kernel and manipulate everything, (you could turn your PC into a furniture or a brick if you 'd want to) due also to the monolithic kernel architecture allowing that, MS Windows on the other hand which started as a tiling window manager on top of DOS, a single-user, single-tasking, not network aware OS didn't need all that stuff so command.com and later cmd.exe were practically a joke, and even powershell (their recent attempt replacing cmd.exe because the industry was basically fed up with the M$ trash), which is pretty different, it's mostly a "scripting environment" for performing some remote admin tasks and a configuration tool, doesn't provide anywhere that similar (scary) depth of control. Besides the fact that is uses a more complex syntax, no MS Windows user will ever use that thing, and MS support does not even use it for troubleshooting, while in Linux the terminal is the standard universal way to solve issues, and it's pretty understandable too, since the concept of UNIX was simplicity over over-engineering to begin with.

Also, MS Windows never cared fixing its famous catastrophic DLL-hell, they just decided to use static libraries everywhere from NT and on (which are responsible for the immense bloat and insecurity of the OS), so it never had a proper package manager for installing/removing/maintaining software like Linux, only lately there are some (community-based iirc) attempts to create one, named "chocolatey" , most probably because they want everyone to download stuff from their Windows Store, being 30 years late to the party, while having infected every possible PC around the globe with BSODs, malware and viruses, so you can add the powerful commands of those package managers to the differences with cmd.exe or powershell too.

Just sayin.

[guigirl]

@npro

[npro]

@guigirl I keep track of those! as I said in another thread!

[guigirl]

@npro

[Catweazle]

@npro , agree, certainly there ae some diffference, but with commands in Windows you also can convert your PC in a paperweight without problems. Even so in its normal settings (registry, services....) or simply deleting some systemfiles.
But I think nobody want to do this. Also in Windows you can change nearly anything, the difference is, normally you don't need console commands for this, like in Linux. But in this aspects is easier to change something in Linux as in Windows, where you need more knowledge to do this, because you need to know non documented settings which are not in the normal settings panel, apart much of these very cryptic in the registry (comanche territory), where you must know what you are doing.

[npro]

@Catweazle said in Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?:

but with commands in Windows you also can convert your PC in a paperweight without problems. Even so in its normal settings (registry, services....) or simply deleting some systemfiles.

I'm not talking about optimization of any kind but turning your PC into a non functional, non repairable literal brick. That kind of power.

Re optimization you (3rd-person) are still limited to what you read here and there on the Internet or by using 3rd-party programs that use only several whitelisted APIs, while remaining a clueless user, the rest and serious stuff is hidden and locked, because it is a proprietary software.

Following tutorials from disputable sources, from people who just try & error, without having any clue what kind of mess they are creating, messing around with the untransparent over-engineered registry and deleting systemfiles, using "cleaners" etc, is the perfect way to damage your system and harvest the fruits of corruption later, leading first to "harmless" dll messages, then BSODs, then Recovery or Format.

Disabling interconnected and "cooperating" features of the OS, system services, even things like telemetry and UWP applications means you are killing dependencies here and there, crippling subsystems you have no clue about what they are doing and how they cooperate with each other, and to what extent they were programmed to tolerate the absence of another and which security implications are involved by doing so, only to have an illusion (or a sense of "power-user" satisfaction that you have achieved something better, or to show Microsoft who's the real boss) that you somehow control your PC, while you only damage it more. Why do you think that the Windows OS traditionally was working better the way it was intended to work with its own programs, and when one would start installing various software including Antivirus, each with their own services, libraries, etc, or removing stuff (like the Internet Explorer) the system would start degrading and errors would arise?

I can tell you how you can really optimize MS Windows, go to your Event Manager and try to fix every error and warning listed there. Have you ever tried that?

But I think nobody want to do this. Also in Windows you can change nearly anything

I and many Linux users want to have full control of and full saying over our system, that is freedom and the true meaning of ownership.

You say you can change nearly anything, well no, first of all many things are hidden and kept secret for the above reason, (proprietary closed software) secondly even if you would try you would be talking to the various APIs "above" the kernel, not directly to the kernel as with Linux. In Linux any application can access the kernel, on Windows, not. Hence you can't change everything, you can't compile the kernel yourself, you can't delete and restore it as it was before without bringing the system to chaotic unstable levels. I suppose this concerns other major subsystems as well. Can you rip-off the audio subsystem and replace it with something else? Can you remove the Window Manager? The bootloader? Furthermore, a couple of years ago, don't know if you can now, you couldn't even remove Internet Explorer, that's a thing so basic you couldn't change.

But in this aspects is easier to change something in Linux as in Windows, where you need more knowledge to do this, because you need to know non documented settings which are not in the normal settings panel, apart much of these very cryptic in the registry (comanche territory), where you must know what you are doing

which means no one can really optimize Windows , as 99,99% of users don't have access to the non documented settings and can only rely on some 0.01% that has participated in some Microsoft Insider Program or has bought a book that covers 5% of the internals and can understand what's inside, other than as previously said, touch some settings and enjoy the placebo effect with all the other implications ignored.

And what meaning has "optimization" on Windows anyway, as explained in another post and here, Windows has started as a tiling window manager on top of DOS, then they added a memory extender and a primitive multitasker, then they added the Windows 95 APIs that are still being used today, then they switched kernel (copied the VMS kernel from Digital) and added other subsystems like networking, while keeping compatibility, then they kept adding more and more bloat with every release, for example the UWP phone applications backend for Windows 8-11, so basically you have a mix of 16-bit legacy code, 32-bit and 64-bit subsystems on top of Windows 95 API, tons of obsolete, abandoned libraries (for compatibility reasons), all held together with bolts and duct-tape, while getting UI bottox injections every 3-5 years, but disabling a service or two can optimize the system...

Iirc right, even Microsoft is thinking about ditching the whole Frankenstein and starting over from scratch for Windows 12, or keeping minor bits of Windows 11. But then again we are talking about the new grim era with their own black-box chip on the CPU called Pluton, forced TPMs, Window Store, online accounts only, a direction to a closed, fully controlled platform similar to Apple, only much worse.

[Catweazle]

@npro , I am aware of this things, and yes, I use also the event visor in Windows. I know well which telemetries are needed and which not, also which services are nedded and which I can disactivate without problems.
Because of this I said, that you can tame Windows to the millimeter, but not without knowledge how it works and which dependencies it has. Good possible to do this, but much more difficult as in Linux. A newbee may try it using the GodMode, a own function in Windows, ( indocumented, logic) which give acces to more than 200 settings, without the need of third party apps. But with some knowledge you can do much more. The core of Windows is closed, but all other is accesible, but as I said before, If you know what you are doing.
PS. A nice old toy to explore your system (FOSS, Windows and Linux) which you may like.
Video presentation

[npro]

@Catweazle said in Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?:

Because of this I said, that you can tame Windows to the millimeter, but not without knowledge how it works

You mean going back to DOS and reading all the messy half-assed work they 've done producing mutually incompatible subystems and holding it with duct-tape and bubblegum as I explained it to you to create this monster? Impossible even for retired MS engineers, not to speak about you and me. You keep repeating about the knowledge, but there's no knowledge, it is a conglomerate of a mess that even MS engineers want to forget. The code is abandoned and left intact because you can't remove a bolt now or everything will fall apart. But they need new stuff like the UWP applications so they keep adding more and more, and cash flow to keep their business running so you get shiny new interfaces based on that same granny code every once in a while.

The core of Windows is closed, but all other is accesible

no it's not, everything "important" is proprietary and locked in ways you can not understand how they work to alter their behavior or gain full control, unless you reverse-engineer them and even then you don't get the full picture. It's not about changing some settings that you can change, or in which layer they are accessible, it's about that control and freedom doing whatever you like with your system, even turning it into a brick, because.

The tool looks nice though, I even think I've seen it before but have forgotten its existence.

[guigirl]

Why has this LINUX thread become yet another battleground for we poor defenceless unopinionated humble Nixers to have to once more wearily defend our fabulous little operating system / LtU&E against yet more attacks from external marauding bands of vicious invading windozers, who steadfastly cling to their comical false-dog even in the face of logic & facts?

Partisan windozers should take their BSoD & fsck-off from this Nix thread, unless they are explicitly addressing only the stated subject matter. How would they like it if, otoh, we poor defenceless unopinionated humble Nixers were to venture forth from our Nix thread sanctuary & jump into windozing threads with unrequested Nix proselytising? Hmmmmm?

Oh, wait...
Look, over there!

[ingolftopf]

@npro I'm afraid you've described Windows, in your own unique way, quite aptly.

Can we agree that 'Q4OS' with its 'Debian' is a good alternative to Windows, especially for newcomers?

[npro]

@ingolftopf Thx. I hope it was also a bit entertaining looking it from the Linux perspective

@ingolftopf said in Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?:

Can we agree that 'Q4OS' with its 'Debian' is a good alternative to Windows, especially for newcomers?

No we can't, because I never used Q4OS nor will I ever use it, plus/because I never liked Debian and its derivatives to begin with, so you are really asking the wrong person about it .
Also you are putting 2 new terms on the table, Windows and newcomers, in that case what @Aaron said above applies.