Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?
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@Catweazle said in Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?:
which on the other hand is not so different from the Windows one and only differs from the commands used.
ehm yes it is, in Linux being UNIX-like (and the de-facto "modern" UNIX for some 20+ years) the terminal/console is an integral part of the OS (teletype terminals in the '70s) so you can reach the deepest depths of the kernel and manipulate everything, (you could turn your PC into a furniture or a brick if you 'd want to) due also to the monolithic kernel architecture allowing that, MS Windows on the other hand which started as a tiling window manager on top of DOS, a single-user, single-tasking, not network aware OS didn't need all that stuff so command.com and later cmd.exe were practically a joke, and even powershell (their recent attempt replacing cmd.exe because the industry was basically fed up with the M$ trash), which is pretty different, it's mostly a "scripting environment" for performing some remote admin tasks and a configuration tool, doesn't provide anywhere that similar (scary) depth of control. Besides the fact that is uses a more complex syntax, no MS Windows user will ever use that thing, and MS support does not even use it for troubleshooting, while in Linux the terminal is the standard universal way to solve issues, and it's pretty understandable too, since the concept of UNIX was simplicity over over-engineering to begin with.
Also, MS Windows never cared fixing its famous catastrophic DLL-hell, they just decided to use static libraries everywhere from NT and on (which are responsible for the immense bloat and insecurity of the OS), so it never had a proper package manager for installing/removing/maintaining software like Linux, only lately there are some (community-based iirc) attempts to create one, named "chocolatey"
, most probably because they want everyone to download stuff from their Windows Store, being 30 years late to the party, while having infected every possible PC around the globe with BSODs, malware and viruses, so you can add the powerful commands of those package managers to the differences with cmd.exe or powershell too.Just sayin.
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@guigirl I keep track of those! as I said in another thread!
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@npro , agree, certainly there ae some diffference, but with commands in Windows you also can convert your PC in a paperweight without problems. Even so in its normal settings (registry, services....) or simply deleting some systemfiles.
But I think nobody want to do this. Also in Windows you can change nearly anything, the difference is, normally you don't need console commands for this, like in Linux. But in this aspects is easier to change something in Linux as in Windows, where you need more knowledge to do this, because you need to know non documented settings which are not in the normal settings panel, apart much of these very cryptic in the registry (comanche territory), where you must know what you are doing.>Laptop ACER, AMD Ryzen, GPU AMD Radeon RAM 16GB, SSD 512GB -Win11 Home 64 v24H2| Vivaldi last stable|
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@Catweazle said in Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?:
but with commands in Windows you also can convert your PC in a paperweight without problems. Even so in its normal settings (registry, services....) or simply deleting some systemfiles.
I'm not talking about optimization of any kind but turning your PC into a non functional, non repairable literal brick. That kind of power.
Re optimization you (3rd-person) are still limited to what you read here and there on the Internet or by using 3rd-party programs that use only several whitelisted APIs, while remaining a clueless user, the rest and serious stuff is hidden and locked, because it is a proprietary software.
Following tutorials from disputable sources, from people who just try & error, without having any clue what kind of mess they are creating, messing around with the untransparent over-engineered registry and deleting systemfiles, using "cleaners" etc, is the perfect way to damage your system and harvest the fruits of corruption later, leading first to "harmless" dll messages, then BSODs, then Recovery or Format.
Disabling interconnected and "cooperating" features of the OS, system services, even things like telemetry and UWP applications means you are killing dependencies here and there, crippling subsystems you have no clue about what they are doing and how they cooperate with each other, and to what extent they were programmed to tolerate the absence of another and which security implications are involved by doing so, only to have an illusion (or a sense of "power-user" satisfaction that you have achieved something better, or to show Microsoft who's the real boss) that you somehow control your PC, while you only damage it more. Why do you think that the Windows OS traditionally was working better the way it was intended to work with its own programs, and when one would start installing various software including Antivirus, each with their own services, libraries, etc, or removing stuff (like the Internet Explorer) the system would start degrading and errors would arise?
I can tell you how you can really optimize MS Windows, go to your Event Manager and try to fix every error and warning listed there. Have you ever tried that?
But I think nobody want to do this. Also in Windows you can change nearly anything
I and many Linux users want to have full control of and full saying over our system, that is freedom and the true meaning of ownership.
You say you can change nearly anything, well no, first of all many things are hidden and kept secret for the above reason, (proprietary closed software) secondly even if you would try you would be talking to the various APIs "above" the kernel, not directly to the kernel as with Linux. In Linux any application can access the kernel, on Windows, not. Hence you can't change everything, you can't compile the kernel yourself, you can't delete and restore it as it was before without bringing the system to chaotic unstable levels. I suppose this concerns other major subsystems as well. Can you rip-off the audio subsystem and replace it with something else? Can you remove the Window Manager? The bootloader? Furthermore, a couple of years ago, don't know if you can now, you couldn't even remove Internet Explorer, that's a thing so basic you couldn't change.
But in this aspects is easier to change something in Linux as in Windows, where you need more knowledge to do this, because you need to know non documented settings which are not in the normal settings panel, apart much of these very cryptic in the registry (comanche territory), where you must know what you are doing
which means no one can really optimize Windows , as 99,99% of users don't have access to the non documented settings and can only rely on some 0.01% that has participated in some Microsoft Insider Program or has bought a book that covers 5% of the internals and can understand what's inside, other than as previously said, touch some settings and enjoy the placebo effect with all the other implications ignored.
And what meaning has "optimization" on Windows anyway, as explained in another post and here, Windows has started as a tiling window manager on top of DOS, then they added a memory extender and a primitive multitasker, then they added the Windows 95 APIs that are still being used today, then they switched kernel (copied the VMS kernel from Digital) and added other subsystems like networking, while keeping compatibility, then they kept adding more and more bloat with every release, for example the UWP phone applications backend for Windows 8-11, so basically you have a mix of 16-bit legacy code, 32-bit and 64-bit subsystems on top of Windows 95 API, tons of obsolete, abandoned libraries (for compatibility reasons), all held together with bolts and duct-tape, while getting UI bottox injections every 3-5 years, but disabling a service or two can optimize the system...
Iirc right, even Microsoft is thinking about ditching the whole Frankenstein and starting over from scratch for Windows 12, or keeping minor bits of Windows 11. But then again we are talking about the new grim era with their own black-box chip on the CPU called Pluton, forced TPMs, Window Store, online accounts only, a direction to a closed, fully controlled platform similar to Apple, only much worse.
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@npro , I am aware of this things, and yes, I use also the event visor in Windows. I know well which telemetries are needed and which not, also which services are nedded and which I can disactivate without problems.
Because of this I said, that you can tame Windows to the millimeter, but not without knowledge how it works and which dependencies it has. Good possible to do this, but much more difficult as in Linux. A newbee may try it using the GodMode, a own function in Windows, ( indocumented, logic) which give acces to more than 200 settings, without the need of third party apps. But with some knowledge you can do much more. The core of Windows is closed, but all other is accesible, but as I said before, If you know what you are doing.
PS. A nice old toy to explore your system (FOSS, Windows and Linux) which you may like.
Video presentation>Laptop ACER, AMD Ryzen, GPU AMD Radeon RAM 16GB, SSD 512GB -Win11 Home 64 v24H2| Vivaldi last stable|
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@Catweazle said in Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?:
Because of this I said, that you can tame Windows to the millimeter, but not without knowledge how it works
You mean going back to DOS and reading all the messy half-assed work they 've done producing mutually incompatible subystems and holding it with duct-tape and bubblegum as I explained it to you to create this monster? Impossible even for retired MS engineers, not to speak about you and me. You keep repeating about the knowledge, but there's no knowledge, it is a conglomerate of a mess that even MS engineers want to forget. The code is abandoned and left intact because you can't remove a bolt now or everything will fall apart. But they need new stuff like the UWP applications so they keep adding more and more, and cash flow to keep their business running so you get shiny new interfaces based on that same granny code every once in a while.
The core of Windows is closed, but all other is accesible
no it's not, everything "important" is proprietary and locked in ways you can not understand how they work to alter their behavior or gain full control, unless you reverse-engineer them and even then you don't get the full picture. It's not about changing some settings that you can change, or in which layer they are accessible, it's about that control and freedom doing whatever you like with your system, even turning it into a brick, because.
The tool looks nice though, I even think I've seen it before but have forgotten its existence.
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Why has this LINUX thread become yet another battleground for we poor defenceless unopinionated humble Nixers to have to once more wearily defend our fabulous little operating system / LtU&E against yet more attacks from external marauding bands of vicious invading windozers, who steadfastly cling to their comical false-dog even in the face of logic & facts?
Partisan windozers should take their BSoD & fsck-off from this Nix thread, unless they are explicitly addressing only the stated subject matter. How would they like it if, otoh, we poor defenceless unopinionated humble Nixers were to venture forth from our Nix thread sanctuary & jump into windozing threads with unrequested Nix proselytising? Hmmmmm?
Oh, wait...
Look, over there!
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@npro I'm afraid you've described Windows, in your own unique way, quite aptly.
Can we agree that 'Q4OS' with its 'Debian' is a good alternative to Windows, especially for newcomers?
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@ingolftopf Thx. I hope it was also a bit entertaining looking it from the Linux perspective
@ingolftopf said in Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?:
Can we agree that 'Q4OS' with its 'Debian' is a good alternative to Windows, especially for newcomers?
No we can't, because I never used Q4OS nor will I ever use it, plus/because I never liked Debian and its derivatives to begin with, so you are really asking the wrong person about it
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Also you are putting 2 new terms on the table, Windows and newcomers, in that case what @Aaron said above applies.
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@npro I know this more than a month later, but agreed. IMHO Windows itself isn't all that beginner friendly for the reasons you mentioned and it's too easy for the beginner to install malware.
For more advanced users, give me LDAP over the abomination that calls itself Active Directory any day of the week. The latter has a weird, inconstant interface that makes it cumbersome and relatively difficult to use. The rest of the software isn't better. Windows is still better for gaming, but for getting real work done, Linux is better.
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The OP asked a valid, & IMO quite useful question. I'd have been interested to read a range of experienced penguin responses. Instead, a preponderance of posts were about bloody windoze. Geez, ffs!
C'mon penguins
Do you think 'Debian' is beginner-friendly?
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@MidnightRaccoon , Windows is not beginner friendly at all, rather it abuses beginners. On the contrary, it requires a good knowledge to be able to avoid these abuses, it is only deceptively easier to handle than Linux, but not because it is friendly.
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I honestly feel Debian needs a little experience and expertise with #Linux.
#Ubuntu is based on it and makes it friendly.
#LinuxMind is based on Ubuntu to make it more appealing and friendly.
The choice is up to the user to choose any of these and all have equal potential for being the best #OperatingSystem for Work or Hobby.
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Compared to Ubuntu i like Debian with KDE.
Ubuntu with GNOME has less ability to configure environment and apps easy and fast for beginners. -
@DoctorG, in the past I had very good experiences with Ubuntu from KDE, Kubuntu, which is way better and easier to handle than Ubuntu as is. I like KDE, German quality products.
https://apps.kde.org>Laptop ACER, AMD Ryzen, GPU AMD Radeon RAM 16GB, SSD 512GB -Win11 Home 64 v24H2| Vivaldi last stable|
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@Catweazle With older hardware i had much trouble with (K)Ubuntu in the past, reason why i switched to Debian more than 6 years ago in my office.
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@DoctorG , yes, certainly it's not the lighted distro out there (also Ubuntu itself isn't), but in my old PCwith 4GB RAM 32bits i don't had any problems, it was fast, stable like a rock, nice and elegant UI and easy handling.. I think that it will work fine in todays basic PC, as any current distros will do.
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