Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems

[ingolftopf]

@TravellinBob
You will certainly be supported here in the forum.

Or also at our "Digital Consultation Hour", questions about IT & PC, in our 'Literature Café 7' on 'Jabbe/XMPP' with about 'Jitsi Meet', a good, open source video conference.:
xmpp:[email protected]?join

[Eggcorn]

From the blog post:

Once that happens, the question becomes even more pointed: Support old, obsolete OS versions, or the newer versions? The correct answer is, of course, to support the newer versions, and retire the older ones.

There's a third option: Continue to give security and stability updates for obsolete OS versions. I doubt Vivaldi has the resources to do that, but maybe Firefox or Opera could.

[Zalex108]

We'll need to ask OperaAC coders to Fix that on Chromium for Vivaldi

[nedhamson]

And if you cannot afford to update because your computer is too old... you now have a fancy doorstop instead of a computer. You can still use the computer but will not be able to use the internet. You'd think a forward thinking organization would find a way to support those with less income or people in less developed parts of the world, if for no other reason than to create loyalty for when they have more resources. I am reminded that hundreds of thousands of IBM mechanical typewriters continued to be sold and used in South America years after the IBM Selectric became the common mode in the developed Northern world. Maybe there are not enough people in authority who even remember the typewriter world and how it repeats itself in the digital world...

[DrakoDrakkonis]

First Story: A couple of years ago I got at a garage sale an old Dell Optiplex 746 desktop in, frankly, more than optimal condition, and which works with x32~x64 systems. I paid anything for it, something like 35 euros . The only flaw it has is that it consumes twice as many watts as a computer with similar characteristics nowadays. But, I don't have it for daily use. My intention was to install Windows XP Professional SP 3 on it and thus relocate two dozen useful programs that I value highly and use from time to time and that Windows 10 cannot possibly accept, as I had already noticed with Windows 7. As the behaviour of all this software is well known to me, I didn't need to install any antivirus. It is more than obvious that I do not connect the old Optiplex to the Internet . It would be useless suicide, of course.

Second Story: For almost eleven years I have had a laptop that was designed to run Windows 7. In truth, it did so quite well and stably. But, when Microsoft offered me Windows 10 at no cost, just like millions of users around the planet I ended up accepting the "gift". Yes, the old laptop worked fine as always, but overheating beyond permissible processor and all the rest. Anyway, the only solution was to buy a cooling unit. Windows 10, no doubt about it, is a very resource-hungry operating system. And from the news I have, Windows 11 follows this pattern .

Third Story: My desktop computer, the one I use regularly, is less than three years old and when I bought it it was already prepared for Windows 10. I bought it new, it is good to add this point, and I can attest that it has worked quite well and is very fast in its operations. However, when Microsoft started offering Windows 11 a distressing warning appeared in the update panel : My computer is not ready to receive its new, miraculous operating system. However, with a link MS promised to analyse the problem and show me any possible solution for the case. "How...? - I asked myself in amazement - Microsoft is already starting to feel pity - after so many years - for the users of its products?" I confess that I was about to shed a tear of gratitude as I pointed my mouse at the link. Fifteen torturous seconds passed and what do you think was the solution I was given from Redmond: The glorious page of new computers that Microsoft offers to its users, the cheapest of which cost something like five times what I had paid for my most recent one!

Epilogue: I know from experience about 30 GNU/Linux distros. As in everything, there are good, mediocre, bad and excellent ones. It's a matter of trying them out and getting to know them one by one.

Think about the following as I have done: Is it necessary to have a last generation computer to access the web? Is it compulsory to do it with an operating system that only supports last generation computers? In both cases the answer will be a resounding NO . Here is the advantage of GNU/Linux: Almost all distros can be installed on computers built in the last twenty years, and almost all of them have the most up-to-date software to access the web as efficiently as with other operating systems. And for GNU/Linux there are many programs that work wonders in the field of visual and sound creation and recreation, and in the areas of engineering, teaching, administration and communication, to name a few.

Are we going to miss what we used to do in Windows with some applications that will no longer be supported from version 11 onwards? I give the solution above in the First Story.

Regards.

[Catweazle]

@nedhamson , even in an old computer you can run a new Linux and use the internet. The only condicion is that the PC support 64 bit, but the most after 2005 do this, despite having a 32 bit OS in this years.

[Eggcorn]

@Catweazle That depends on how old the computer is. Ten-years-old? Shouldn't be a problem. 30-years-old? Unless you feel like replacing both the motherboard and the hard disk, forget it!

[yngve]

@Eggcorn said in Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems:

From the blog post:

Once that happens, the question becomes even more pointed: Support old, obsolete OS versions, or the newer versions? The correct answer is, of course, to support the newer versions, and retire the older ones.

There's a third option: Continue to give security and stability updates for obsolete OS versions. I doubt Vivaldi has the resources to do that, but maybe Firefox or Opera could.

I don't know if you noticed the preceding sentence and put it into context; that particular case was about the tools used to build the application no longer supporting the OS version (and possibly not the relevant CPUs).

Once that point is reached, the only practical way to support the unsupported OS versions is to build two (or more) different executables, using different compiler versions and SDKs. To do that using the same source code version probably also requires patching every old OS specific code location if it would break with the newer compilers and SDKs. Building multiple versions means performing a LOT more testing (at least double), using old, hard to find hardware.

I don't know what is included in the upcoming Windows SDK version for Windows 11 that the Chromium team is currently testing, but my guess is that it may not support Win8.1 or earlier, and if so it might explain the Chromium team's decision to no longer support those old versions.

And all of that assumes you have full control over the source code. Reverting the upstream removals is very problematic. You can't miss a single one, and every time upstream changes the code in that location you have to figure out a fix that does not break old OS functionality and/or new OS functionality. We already use 2-3 weeks to get a new Chromium version integrated and working, and this kind of thing could easily add a week, or more.

Firefox might be able to do that, since they have their own source code, but they will run into issues with compilers and SDKs too, eventually. As for Opera, they are, like Vivaldi, based on Chromium, and will encounter the same challenges.

Even if you meant to say that we could fork off the current version and backport security patches, that is not going to work for long. There is no need for us to even test it. A few years ago, we had to skip several Chromium versions while we adapted to changes that seriously broke our functionality. Towards the end, we could barely apply less than half the security patches from 3 or 4 Chromium versions ahead of our own version. That is, after just 5 months it was very difficult to backport patches, and it was not just because the code did not exist in the earlier version, but because the code had been significantly rewritten since our version. Imagine doing that a year or two later, one might be lucky to be able to backport 1% of the patches. The end result would likely be a browser that is even less secure than the OS it is running on.

[mossman]

@ingolftopf said in Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems:

For a start/change to Linux I would recommend 'Q4Os'.
https://q4os.org

Based on 'Debian-Stable', more recent programs (packages) can be installed easily via 'Debian-Backports' and you still have a 'rock-solid' system.

Q4OS can be installed very easily, like a Windows program, without stick, DVD installation, on a Windows computer, beside or completely.
Like the old, no longer maintained 'Wubi' Ubuntu installation.
I am very enthusiastic about this, and have often recommended it with success.
There is also a Jabber/XMPP room for: xmpp:[email protected]?join

Where were you when I was making threads asking for help with my netbook over the years (starting way back when XP support ended?

After a long time trying a couple of other distros which all had their little problems with the hardware, I eventually discovered Q4OS and it was perfect out of the box. Then when Chrome dropped 32 bit I discovered I could install 64 bit Q4OS as well! It's the only thing keeping the netbook relevant (not that I use it much these days)...

[User5765]

@lonm: Planned obsolescence is not limited to hardware. I know a lot of people don't realize this, but for some of us, a OS costs a lot of money.

You want me to install Linux? Sure. Are you going to sponsor the new hard drive that I need to put it on, so I don't lose all my important data? Are you going to compensate me for all the precious time away from work I'm going to waste setting everything up how I need it? Fixing the things that were working fine and wasn't broken before? What are you going to do about all the software I need that only runs on Windows and not on Linux?

Anyway, all I'm saying is, there is a lot of irony in Vivaldi dropping support for one of the last versions of Windows that doesn't actively spy on you, while supposedly being all about "privacy".

[Pesala]

@User5765 It is Microsoft that dropped support for legacy OS, not Vivaldi. And Vivaldi uses the Chrome code, so it cannot support legacy Windows OS, even if it wanted to. It has already been explained why not.

If you buy pretty much any software that connects to the Internet, you have to keep it up to date. Would you use antivirus software that was a decade old if it was never patched?

With Windows, you do not need to install other AV — Windows Defender and Firewall is good enough for most users. However, if you want to keep your PC protected, you need to upgrade.

[Eggcorn]

@User5765 said in Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems:

Are you going to compensate me for all the precious time away from work I'm going to waste setting everything up how I need it?

The only compensation you may be owed is a refund, except you didn't pay for Vivaldi in the first place, so that's already taken care of. My advice is to switch to Opera or Firefox, if one of those browsers still gets secretly updates and you're not willing to switch to a modern operating system.

[Hadden89]

@ingolftopf Q4OS is nice, even if I'm a bit sad it doesn't offer tweaked xfce variant
It does, I just have selected it. Now I'm with an overbloated plasma desktop with konqueror and vivaldi is not in the featured apps
Well if the UEFI boot is not dead - or if Win11 won't the destroy the dual boot - I'll switch to my beloved xfce and keep this side os with me ^^

[luetage]

@Pesala Opera is on Chromium too, it’s likely they drop support as well. As for Firefox… they are considering support ☛ https://www.techgoing.com/mozilla-is-considering-extending-firefox-support-on-windows-7-and-8-1/. It’s not definite. Both browser makers have far more developers than Vivaldi.

[zeLounge]

"Goodbye... planned obsolescence"
Still in win7 on my upgraded ThinkPad T440p. With Linux Mint in parallel.
Vivaldi v5.6 will be the last to support w7, then so be it, that will be the last version I will be using on w7.
You can fall for the End-Of-Life gimmick, and the "or live with the risk of having their computer attacked." fearmongering... I don't.
I've been in the IT business since the 80s, and I've heard it all (up to now).
Buy the "New & Improved" seduction, they say... but eventually the computer is no longer serving me... I'm serving the computer/software mega-industries.
I won't blame Vivaldi's team for keeping up with Google's chromium platform race to maintain their monopoly and control. That is the business model, isn't it?
As much as I think your article is filled with self-justifications and worn out clichés, I understand, and speculate, that Vivaldi must follow the "big guys" to keep its sponsors.
So let's not kid ourselves with such nonsense rhetoric, please.
Regards.
PS. THEY always use the same technic, create fear & propose seductive solutions. If you don't get that, by all means go back to sleep.

[Catweazle]

@zeLounge , I don't see the thing as dramatic, I have survived from the changes since pre-Windows times with MS DOS and various equipment changes. I have rarely lost anything, documents, photos, videos currently still have valid formats to be able to access, in applications I have always preferred FOSS and most of the commercial soft has excellent OpenSource alternatives.

For this reason I have not lost financially either. I didn't have any problems either when successive Windows lost support, using some Linux distro, which is always available.
The only investment is the time to configure the system to the needs. After many years Windows 7 has reached the end of the road and it is not such a big problem to go to 10 or Linux, to continue having compatibility with the browser. Why is this going to touch Vivaldi and all the others too, even if one or the other endured months? anything else.

This touches Vivaldi and also everyone else, even FF, maybe a month or so later. Throughout our lives, we are left to invent unheard-of words and remind ourselves with "love" of the ancestors of these great monopolies.

[zeLounge]

@eggcorn: I'm running a 10-year-old ThinkPad: few OS running at the same time in vBox, encode videos in x265, 3D CAD... no sweat (well, maybe a bit hot).
20-year-old computers: you'd be surprise how well they run with the appropriate Linux distribution.
30-year-old computers: Still could be good as typewriters.

In the 60s, people watched 20in B/W TV. Now you got to have a 6ft wide 4K panel, otherwise you're out. Really ?? Are people happier with a 6ft wide TV ??

My point is that in the progression, there is a point where more is not better. Win7 is a good example of a mature OS. All newer versions have not brought significant improvement other than messing up the UI. The argument of newer hardware is Marketing BS to maintain a steady stream of revenue. Chromium... same BS, they're pushing the need for faster CPU/GPU, more memory, more disk, more, more, more...; same with website/streaming... you need a minimum of 20Mbps to surf the net... pushing for faster & faster datacenters.

Are we happier?

[zeLounge]

@Catweazle Love your avatar
Here & now, this on its own, is not a drama, I agree. And I relate very well with your few decades experience.

My sounding dramatic, is witnessing the surrounding & intensifying push from all major organizations toward a "global technocracy" (or something like that).

More & more, the hardware/software is "controlled" by Big tech. Some android software won't run if the google services is not connected. It's becoming almost impossible to repair your own stuff. Hell, you can buy a 200,000 John Deere tractor, but you're prohibited from repairing it, it is software locked.

We live in a full consent manufacturing times. Gullibly seduced, and bagged like chickens.

To me, it's a bit dramatic. I wish I would take it as calmly as you.
Kind regards, & thx for your feedback.

[Zalex108]

to have a robust Last W7 Snap and Stable versions to keep browsing for as long as we can / need.

[Eggcorn]

@zeLounge said in Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems:

30-year-old computers: Still could be good as typewriters.

At that point: You're better off with a cheap but more modern computer that can use the Internet. That would also be good as a typewriter. Aside from some specialized uses, or if you just want to own a piece of computer history: A 30-year-old computer is utterly impractical.

Unless, of course, you replace the motherboard and hard disk. If such an old computer will accept a modern motherboard and hard disk: You could get yourself a historic 30-year-old computer, that's practical for daily use.