Add mouse gesture timeout
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Sometimes in the middle of a mouse gesture, I would decide to cancel it. I do that by shaking my mouse violently. While effective, it just feels... silly.
It would be nice to have an option to just cancel the gesture after X seconds.
Thanks in advance!
pantsu is love. pantsu is life.
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I disagree that timeouts help here - this is basically the same as doing gestures that do not exist, but if the timeout is too small you're going to confuse people or may even create an anti-feature, and if it's too large I don't see how it really helps. Not sure if you use mouse gestures that are not reversible, but I think that sometimes making an error is really not too bad.
i'd much rather expect
Escapeto just cancel mouse gestures, which it does not right now. May this be an alternative way? -
@jumpsq said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
I disagree that timeouts help here - this is basically the same as doing gestures that do not exist, but if the timeout is too small you're going to confuse people or may even create an anti-feature. i'd rather expect
Escapeto just cancel mouse gestures, which it does not right now.It doesn't need to be enabled for all users, just an option for those who need it. On Chrome, I used an extension called CRX Mouse Gestures and it had a configurable timeout that will cancel a gesture when you stop moving your mouse (after the configured time) and it works really well.
Besides, the point of mouse gestures is so that you don't have to use your other hand to interact with the keyboard. This should be useful for those who are only able to use one hand at a time.
pantsu is love. pantsu is life.
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@nakedpantsu said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
I do that by shaking my mouse violently.
I also belong to the group of anonymous violent mouse shakers
Usually on Win11 running Vivaldi Snapshot builds. Opinionated about working efficiently with email. Folders are evil | Mail workflow: receive, read, reply, mark as read, done.
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@wildente said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
I also belong to the group of anonymous violent mouse shakers
This.
You can do it quicker than waiting X seconds for it to timeout.
And what should the timeout be? Even waiting 0.5 seconds feels like forever compared to actively doing something like a mouse shake when you need to.
Also sometimes i hold a gesture while finishing reading a page, then release when done. A timeout would be annoying in this instance.
I'm not opposed to extra options, and it is what Vivaldi does well, but this is one where it doesn't really seem to serve a purpose.
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I'm not opposed to extra options
No offense, but what's the point in you replying to this idea then? You don't have to use it if you don't need to. As mentioned in my post, I'm only asking for it to be an option for those who need it.
As for its purpose, not much really, just a good quality-of-life feature. I believe mouse gestures in general were conceived to help people who are not able to make use of both hands or have issues with their hands in general. Having the option to cancel gestures by pausing should be a good option.
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@nakedpantsu said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
No offense, but what's the point in you replying to this idea then?
Even critical comments should be welcome. They can help to improve feature requests that were not well formulated. If the request has any value, it should stand up to scrutiny.
In my opinion, this request does not stand up to scrutiny. There is no need to violently shake the mouse — just complete the gesture with a small circular motion.
Using escape to cancel a mouse gesture is not really a solution for those working mostly with the mouse.
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On Chrome, I used an extension called CRX Mouse Gestures and it had a configurable timeout that will cancel a gesture when you stop moving your mouse (after the configured time) and it works really well.
Cool - I guess that it can work then.
As long as it's optional (and preferably the timeout is configurable as well) I can see no issue with your proposal.
I also belong to the group of anonymous violent mouse shakers
Don't we all? I'm still not convinced I want to convert and become a waiter / waitress (no offence :-)).
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For now try move your mouse in diagonal backward direction to cancel MG, such as if the last move is LEFT, then move right up/down diagonally.
or draw a half circle will cancel it too.
If timeout function is implemented, it will need a visual feedback to let user know about it. I think showing a mouse trail when performing MG will be the best, & when MG is cancelled - the trail disappear. -
@dude99 I thought about exactly this when posting, but I was really not sure whether visual hints existed in vivaldi. They worked relatively well in O12, but I did not really require them any more, so it's a setting I'd have probably ignored if it was there. I agree that this could be very helpful for this use case.
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I would prefer to use time delay in mouse gesture to get more gestures => look this suggestion Mouse Gesture Chain
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Speaking with some experience in product management... . We users are limited by our insular knowledge of our usecase, so everyone has some expectation as to how the problem is best solved. Product management has the job of understanding such usecases, condense it to the actual need(s) and then together with the devs find a more or less innovative solution.
We make wishes. We do not define how it should work. So all opinions are allowed, "stand up to scrutiny" is actually the question "why do you think that this is the best way" in order to fully understand the usecase. And sometimes different options is the solution, see tab stacking with second tab bar and accordeon tabs.
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It's better to have the options than nothing.
Timeout, Hints, Trails, and so on.
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This is essential, because the more gestures you have the more you have to worry about accidentally performing a different gesture if you try to shake the mouse to cancel. The more gestures you have, the more you have to shake the mouse to be sure you won't accidentally perform another one, and the more you shake the more it's time-consuming and annoying. Timeouts fix all of that.
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@Aelius said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
The more gestures you have, the more you have to shake the mouse to be sure you won't accidentally perform another one
There is really no need to shake the mouse. Just add a couple of gestures at the end. For example, if:
- GestureDown, GestureUp = Reopen Closed Tab
And if:
- GestureDown, GestureUp, GestureDown = Close Tab
In either case, to cancel after GestureUp, just do GestureLeft or Gesture Right.
I have no definitions using more than two gestures, but if you have some using three, then a fourth gesture is all that you need to cancel.
Time outs fix nothing. If, in the above case, you do GestureDown, GestureUp, then release the RMB, any command defined as GestureDown, GestureUp will be executed, i.e. the last closed teab will be reopened. However, if you just add GestureLeft, that combination will not be recognised and nothing will happen.
Bottom-line: Users should design their command sets to suit their needs, and redesign them if errors routinely occur.
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@Pesala said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
@Aelius said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
The more gestures you have, the more you have to shake the mouse to be sure you won't accidentally perform another one
There is really no need to shake the mouse. Just add a couple of gestures at the end. For example, if:
- GestureDown, GestureUp = Reopen Closed Tab
And if:
- GestureDown, GestureUp, GestureDown = Close Tab
In either case, to cancel after GestureUp, just do GestureLeft or Gesture Right.
I have no definitions using more than two gestures, but if you have some using three, then a fourth gesture is all that you need to cancel.
The problem is that it takes more time to stop and think which gestures are safe to use to cancel than it does to just shake the mouse.
Yes, obviously there are ways to cancel the mouse gesture with only one extra stroke, but only if you stop to think. Even if thinking takes one second, that's longer than a prudent timeout setting. In UX, we take efficiencies of fractions of seconds into account all the time.
Time outs fix nothing. If, in the above case, you do GestureDown, GestureUp, then release the RMB, any command defined as GestureDown, GestureUp will be executed, i.e. the last closed teab will be reopened.
??? What on earth? No, if there's a timeout, then nothing will happen, as long as you stop moving the mouse for the required 0.5 seconds or whatever you have it set to.
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@Aelius I never have to stop to think, not even for 0.5 seconds, to cancel a gesture, because I learnt through muscle memory how to cancel any gesture.
How many mouse gestures have you assigned? Hundreds, or a few dozen? What is the largest number of strokes for any one command?
Why on earth should any gesture time-out? If I perform a mouse gesture, I want it to work.
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@Pesala said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
@Aelius I never have to stop to think, not even for 0.5 seconds, to cancel a gesture, because I learnt through muscle memory how to cancel any gesture.
How many mouse gestures have you assigned? Hundreds, or a few dozen? What is the largest number of strokes for any one command?
Why on earth should any gesture time-out? If I perform a mouse gesture, I want it to work.
In your first sentence, you say you don't have to stop and think to cancel a gesture, but in the last sentence you say it makes no sense to ever want to cancel a gesture. Which is it?
Canceling gestures is important because sometimes, in the fraction of a second it takes to perform a gesture, you realize that you don't actually want to perform it. Perhaps something catches your eye on the page and you want to read it instead of closing the tab.
The problem with your muscle memory argument is that it's contingent upon which gesture is being performed. A stroke that's safe to nullify a gesture in some cases is not safe in other cases. For example, you cannot ingrain "move mouse up to nullify a gesture" in your muscle memory if you have Up-Down as "refresh" and Up-Down-Up as "refresh cache". If you decide instead to ingrain "move mouse right to nullify gesture", that will backfire if you have Up as "new tab" and Up-Right as "duplicate tab".
The only surefire way (without a timeout) is to ingrain in muscle memory "perform X number of strokes to nullify the gesture", where X equals 1 more stroke than the maximum number of strokes you have programmed for any gesture. For me (and probably many others), that means 5 strokes to nullify. At that point, it's basically shaking the mouse. Hence this thread.
Consider that other people know what they're talking about when they tell you what will improve their productivity, and that your suggestions do not work (because, if they did, we'd be happy to incorporate them). It's fine if you're just curious about our preference, but it's particularly annoying when, as you seem to have be throughout this thread, you imply we're just too stupid to get it.
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@Aelius said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
In your first sentence, you say you don't have to stop and think to cancel a gesture, but in the last sentence you say it makes no sense to ever want to cancel a gesture. Which is it?
If I want to cancel a gesture, I don't have to think — I just add an extra stroke (or two) at the end. In my case, none of my gestures are more than two strokes, so if I should want to cancel one, I just add a third gesture. If some of yours have 4 strokes, then that is enough for hundreds of commands. As you say, just add a fifth stroke to cancel it.
I am arguing that it will not improve anyone's productivity.
To improve productivity, reduce the maximum number of strokes to three. How many combinations does that give? Each stroke can be followed by three different ones. So 4×3×3 = 36 with 3 strokes, 4×3 with two strokes, and 4 with a single stroke. Total 52 if my maths is correct. In total, there are about 260 assignable commands, but how many could anyone retrain in muscle memory? I doubt if many could remember more than 52.
Diagonal Gestures would add more possibilities while needing fewer strokes.
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@Pesala said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
@Aelius said in Add mouse gesture timeout:
In your first sentence, you say you don't have to stop and think to cancel a gesture, but in the last sentence you say it makes no sense to ever want to cancel a gesture. Which is it?
If is want to cancel a gesture, I don't have to think — I just add an extra stroke at the end. In my case, none of my gestures are more than two strokes, so if I should want to cancel one, I just add a third gesture. If some of yours have 4 strokes, then that is enough for hundreds of commands. As you say, just add a fifth stroke to cancel it.
I am arguing that it will not improve anyone's productivity.
To improve productivity, reduce the maximum number of strokes to three. How many combinations does that give? Each stroke can be followed by three different ones. So 433 = 36 with 3 strokes, 4*3 with two strokes, and 4 with a single stroke. Total 52 if my maths is correct. In total, there are about 260 assignable commands, but how many could anyone retrain in muscle memory? I doubt if many could remember more than 52.
I understand what you're saying, but the mistake you're making is assuming that gestures are assigned arbitrarily. For me at least, and I assume others, I assign gestures that make intuitive sense rather than that minimize combinations. Here are some examples:
Left is go to the tab to the left. Reason: it's left.
Right is go to the tab to the right. Reason: it's right.
Up is new tab. Reason: upwards feels like escaping from the confines of the current tab
Down is close tab. Reason: it's the opposite of the new tab gesture, and closing a tab is intuitively the opposite of opening one.
Down-up is undo close tab. Reason: It's the close tab gesture combined with the new tab gesture. I'm making a new tab out of the closed tab, essentially.
Up-right is duplicate tab. Reason: It's the new tab gesture combined with feeling like I'm moving the current tab along with it to the right (since new tabs on the tab bar open rightward).
Up-down is refresh. Reason: It feels like wiping the screen clean. I could have done right-left or left-right if I wanted instead.
Up-down-up-down is refresh plus clear cache. Reason: It's doubling the refresh gesture, which feels appropriate for what can be described as a "super refresh".
Left-down-right-up is "homepage" because this gesture is the shape of a home (without a roof).If this all sounds silly, it shouldn't. In UX, we rely on hacking into our brain's funny intuitions and real world analogues all the time. Hell, what do you "tabs" are if not an analogy to real world folder tabs! Or another example: Why does pinch zoom in on a touchscreen? Because... it just... kinda feels right. It's like your fingers are grabbing onto two points and those points follow your fingers. Why do windows appear to layer on top of each other when the screen itself has no actual "depth"? Because it just "feels" like there are physical objects layered on top of each other. The examples are endless.
So anyway, as soon as you realize that gestures shouldn't necessarily be arbitrary and compacted into the fewest combinations possible, you'll realize why four gestures sometimes makes sense. And when you realize that, you'll realize why "just add one more gesture" is not a suitable fix, because it means 5 gestures to reliably nullify the action.
Once and for all: stop pretending that other people's preferences are unwarranted just because you don't share them. If your suggested alternatives don't immediately sway the people you're trying to help, it's overwhelmingly likely that they're not actually helpful suggestions, because we'd happily adopt them if they were.
