Browser Choice Alliance

brucelawson

@electryon Yup - we're in an alliance with Google, and other competitors of ours. We're not marrying them. The sole aim is for the EU (and other regulators) to designate Edge as the same 'gatekeeper' status that Safari and Chrome have on iOS and Android, so they can regulate Microsoft more stringently. Windows is the most important platform for many browsers, given the effective duopoly that has been allowed to strangle competition on mobile.

Catweazle

@oudstand, well, Fakebook and other links shown in the article with third party bloatware, preinstalled apps from the brand, etc. are not the problem, but Google is another thing to get rid in an Google OS. Even in the article they say that it is a risky business.

The topic of this thread regarding EDGE in Windows is also possible to solve, leaving Windows in the OS as is, eliminating all services and bloatware, the EU is now even possible to uninstall EDGE in W11, due to the intervention of the legislators who forced MS to allow it. In W10 and other countries, uninstalling EDGE causes the OS to stop working, same as in older Windows desinstalling IE, there it can be only desactivated.

On Android something similar happens with some pre-installed Google apps, they can be deactivated but not uninstalled without rendering the mobile unusable, Android itself, controlled by Google, prevents this. Do do it you need to modify the OS itself.

This is why there is a modified degoogled Android as an alternative out there, not necessary if it would be possible to do it on a normal Android. But switching is only possible in a rooted phone.

mossman

@aplan said in Browser Choice Alliance:

My dear friends! My favorite browser! I read this post with surprise. Apparently, you're planning to fight against Microsoft.

That's amazing, considering Edge only has a 14% market share. Compare that to Chrome's 66%.

Gentlemen, you're targeting the wrong company!

You should join the lawsuit against Google, where they're planning to force them to sell Chrome. That's where you could really increase your user base.

Microsoft is definitely not the target!

Exept that, like it or not, people choose to install Chrome - while Microsoft is up to its old tricks again to persuade users not to choose anything but Edge.

I also resent the Chrome hegemony, but this is about Microsoft's immoral/illegal tactics.

brucelawson

@mossman Perfectly expressed, thank you!

mossman

@brucelawson Bork bork bork!

(for those who know... )

brucelawson

@mossman said in Browser Choice Alliance:

@brucelawson Bork bork bork!

(for those who know... )

Ah, memories!

DoctorG

@mossman OMG! That was in 2003.

DoctorG

@brucelawson Yes, we elderly people remember this strange browser

Pathduck

@brucelawson Related:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030222155957/http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2003/02/14/

https://fransdejonge.com/2021/10/web-apps-opera-bork-edition/

Now someone who actually knows JS please fix that script so it runs as a .user.js

mossman

@brucelawson said in Browser Choice Alliance:

@mossman said in Browser Choice Alliance:

@brucelawson Bork bork bork!

(for those who know... )

Ah, memories!

I love that several times I have heard people talking about getting a "borked" webpage / app / result file / whatever... so it's clearly entered the language to some degree. But I bet 99% of those people have absolutely no idea where it comes from! :chef:

otto

It appears www.browserchoicealliance.org lacks a valid SSL certificate,

$ echo | openssl s_client -showcerts -servername www.browserchoicealliance.org -connect www.browserchoicealliance.org:443
CONNECTED(00000003)
800B086A7B7F0000:error:0A000126:SSL routines:ssl3_read_n:unexpected eof while reading:../ssl/record/rec_layer_s3.c:317:
no peer certificate available
No client certificate CA names sent
SSL handshake has read 0 bytes and written 331 bytes
Verification: OK
New, (NONE), Cipher is (NONE)
Secure Renegotiation IS NOT supported
Compression: NONE
Expansion: NONE
No ALPN negotiated
Early data was not sent
Verify return code: 0 (ok)

...causing issues in enterprise connections:

This site can’t be reached
The connection was reset.
Try:
Checking the connection
Checking the proxy and the firewall
Running Windows Network Diagnostics
ERR_CONNECTION_RESET

Otherwise, it is a great initiative! It takes me back to the old Opera days

DoctorG

@otto said in Browser Choice Alliance:

echo | openssl s_client -showcerts -servername www.browserchoicealliance.org -connect www.browserchoicealliance.org:443

Issue in your company LAN, security appliance, hardware firewall, router?

I tested with openssl and SSL connection shows cert data in Windows 11 and Debian 12

buero@buero:~$ echo | openssl s_client -showcerts -servername www.browserchoicealliance.org -connect www.browserch
oicealliance.org:443
CONNECTED(00000003)
depth=2 C = US, O = Internet Security Research Group, CN = ISRG Root X1
verify return:1
depth=1 C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R11
verify return:1
depth=0 CN = browserchoicealliance.org
verify return:1
---
Certificate chain
 0 s:CN = browserchoicealliance.org
   i:C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R11
   a:PKEY: rsaEncryption, 2048 (bit); sigalg: RSA-SHA256
   v:NotBefore: Nov 21 23:53:28 2024 GMT; NotAfter: Feb 19 23:53:27 2025 GMT
-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----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-----END CERTIFICATE-----
 1 s:C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R11
   i:C = US, O = Internet Security Research Group, CN = ISRG Root X1
   a:PKEY: rsaEncryption, 2048 (bit); sigalg: RSA-SHA256
   v:NotBefore: Mar 13 00:00:00 2024 GMT; NotAfter: Mar 12 23:59:59 2027 GMT
-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
MIIFBjCCAu6gAwIBAgIRAIp9PhPWLzDvI4a9KQdrNPgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAw
TzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxKTAnBgNVBAoTIEludGVybmV0IFNlY3VyaXR5IFJlc2Vh
cmNoIEdyb3VwMRUwEwYDVQQDEwxJU1JHIFJvb3QgWDEwHhcNMjQwMzEzMDAwMDAw
WhcNMjcwMzEyMjM1OTU5WjAzMQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEWMBQGA1UEChMNTGV0J3Mg
RW5jcnlwdDEMMAoGA1UEAxMDUjExMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIB
CgKCAQEAuoe8XBsAOcvKCs3UZxD5ATylTqVhyybKUvsVAbe5KPUoHu0nsyQYOWcJ
DAjs4DqwO3cOvfPlOVRBDE6uQdaZdN5R2+97/1i9qLcT9t4x1fJyyXJqC4N0lZxG
AGQUmfOx2SLZzaiSqhwmej/+71gFewiVgdtxD4774zEJuwm+UE1fj5F2PVqdnoPy
6cRms+EGZkNIGIBloDcYmpuEMpexsr3E+BUAnSeI++JjF5ZsmydnS8TbKF5pwnnw
SVzgJFDhxLyhBax7QG0AtMJBP6dYuC/FXJuluwme8f7rsIU5/agK70XEeOtlKsLP
Xzze41xNG/cLJyuqC0J3U095ah2H2QIDAQABo4H4MIH1MA4GA1UdDwEB/wQEAwIB
hjAdBgNVHSUEFjAUBggrBgEFBQcDAgYIKwYBBQUHAwEwEgYDVR0TAQH/BAgwBgEB
/wIBADAdBgNVHQ4EFgQUxc9GpOr0w8B6bJXELbBeki8m47kwHwYDVR0jBBgwFoAU
ebRZ5nu25eQBc4AIiMgaWPbpm24wMgYIKwYBBQUHAQEEJjAkMCIGCCsGAQUFBzAC
hhZodHRwOi8veDEuaS5sZW5jci5vcmcvMBMGA1UdIAQMMAowCAYGZ4EMAQIBMCcG
A1UdHwQgMB4wHKAaoBiGFmh0dHA6Ly94MS5jLmxlbmNyLm9yZy8wDQYJKoZIhvcN
AQELBQADggIBAE7iiV0KAxyQOND1H/lxXPjDj7I3iHpvsCUf7b632IYGjukJhM1y
v4Hz/MrPU0jtvfZpQtSlET41yBOykh0FX+ou1Nj4ScOt9ZmWnO8m2OG0JAtIIE38
01S0qcYhyOE2G/93ZCkXufBL713qzXnQv5C/viOykNpKqUgxdKlEC+Hi9i2DcaR1
e9KUwQUZRhy5j/PEdEglKg3l9dtD4tuTm7kZtB8v32oOjzHTYw+7KdzdZiw/sBtn
UfhBPORNuay4pJxmY/WrhSMdzFO2q3Gu3MUBcdo27goYKjL9CTF8j/Zz55yctUoV
aneCWs/ajUX+HypkBTA+c8LGDLnWO2NKq0YD/pnARkAnYGPfUDoHR9gVSp/qRx+Z
WghiDLZsMwhN1zjtSC0uBWiugF3vTNzYIEFfaPG7Ws3jDrAMMYebQ95JQ+HIBD/R
PBuHRTBpqKlyDnkSHDHYPiNX3adPoPAcgdF3H2/W0rmoswMWgTlLn1Wu0mrks7/q
pdWfS6PJ1jty80r2VKsM/Dj3YIDfbjXKdaFU5C+8bhfJGqU3taKauuz0wHVGT3eo
6FlWkWYtbt4pgdamlwVeZEW+LM7qZEJEsMNPrfC03APKmZsJgpWCDWOKZvkZcvjV
uYkQ4omYCTX5ohy+knMjdOmdH9c7SpqEWBDC86fiNex+O0XOMEZSa8DA
-----END CERTIFICATE-----
---
Server certificate
subject=CN = browserchoicealliance.org
issuer=C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R11
---
No client certificate CA names sent
Peer signing digest: SHA256
Peer signature type: RSA-PSS
Server Temp Key: X25519, 253 bits
---
SSL handshake has read 3156 bytes and written 399 bytes
Verification: OK
---
New, TLSv1.3, Cipher is TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
Server public key is 2048 bit
Secure Renegotiation IS NOT supported
Compression: NONE
Expansion: NONE
No ALPN negotiated
Early data was not sent
Verify return code: 0 (ok)
---
---
Post-Handshake New Session Ticket arrived:
SSL-Session:
    Protocol  : TLSv1.3
    Cipher    : TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
    Session-ID: 6673E1046D30B0B9C8AB85493459CD1EF3B3F4BF4AD07797F44D4BD7745E4C93
    Session-ID-ctx:
    Resumption PSK: 43D1EA179F4D6F30CB277941740E311E12C10119EBDD423CC993912D92F5E350
    PSK identity: None
    PSK identity hint: None
    SRP username: None
    TLS session ticket lifetime hint: 86400 (seconds)
    TLS session ticket:
    0000 - 46 72 2a 2f 9f 80 86 6f-d8 70 35 64 a0 27 79 18   Fr*/...o.p5d.'y.
    0010 - f8 50 6c 00 b3 07 96 ab-f9 75 1f dd 3f 63 dc 18   .Pl......u..?c..
    0020 - 05 08 0b 1c 84 a1 62 08-7c 13 10 1e 31 c2 87 bf   ......b.|...1...
    0030 - a7 f3 9f f3 10 e2 c8 9b-a7 bc e5 87 57 a2 1b 4c   ............W..L
    0040 - f8 37 11 05 1b ce ce e1-8a ad 4e 6e 47 aa 99 8b   .7........NnG...
    0050 - 19 60 0c e5 a1 7d 1f a9-d2 22 9d 9a fd 9d d4 95   .`...}..."......
    0060 - 75 af 6c d8 70 c5 e5 9e-47 62 67 21 e6 d6 06 91   u.l.p...Gbg!....
    0070 - df a7 3b 25 70 a6 d0 de-78 2a 0b 21 f3 29 a6 af   ..;%p...x*.!.)..
    0080 - 01 9c d3 5f 92 3b c3 85-94 45 55 d3 eb 39 b2 13   ..._.;...EU..9..
    0090 - 44 a0 07 ea 16 4c d0 24-d2 0e 77 ea f0 31 25 58   D....L.$..w..1%X

    Start Time: 1733390437
    Timeout   : 7200 (sec)
    Verify return code: 0 (ok)
    Extended master secret: no
    Max Early Data: 0
---
read R BLOCK
DONE

otto

@DoctorG Thank you, I suspect our Palo Alto is the culprit

DoctorG

@otto said in Browser Choice Alliance:

I suspect our Palo Alto is the culprit

Yes, such has known issues with SSL.
Please check: ⇒ https://forum.vivaldi.net/post/782855

TravellinBob

The Alliance is an interesting development, well done for being so closely involved. The comments here also make interesting reading, and to be honest I find a bit confusing.

You see, I have never had issues with downloading and Defaulting other browsers in my Windows 10 OS. Currently I have Vivaldi set as my default, Firefox as an alternative (I find its ad-blocking when I'm using YouTube to be better, sorry!) and retain Edge for a couple of specific tasks. I got the nag messages when I installed them but ignored them, and now only get them when MS does a Windows update and offers me the choice, I just say "No" and move on. No hassle.

The same with Search: I use DDG as my search engine, and never have any issues around Bing.

Dunno what I'm doing right, but it all works for me.....

mcastel

@fred8615 wonderful! It's working. Thanks for the suggestion!