Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System

[Pesala]

@securely4024 said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:

So, put easily: if someone wants a Vivaldi mail, the very least they must do is install Vivaldi to help them pay the mail.

Well said, and very clearly explained in detail. I am proud to advertise this browser with every email that I send. I could manage fine without a Vivaldi.net address, but it is a nice bonus for being a long-term member of this community.

@securely4024 You should apply to become an Ambassador for Vivaldi.

[Hausarzt]

@securely4024 While it is surely an effective way to prevent spammers setting up accounts, I think @grovem has a valid point. You need a certain degree of patience if you want access to a Vivaldi webmail account. Having gone the distance myself, I wonder how many potential users / customers simply give up due to the current reputation system...

[WildEnte]

@Hausarzt Vivaldi is about the browser and the community. People who want a free webmail service without the willingness to go the distance are welcome to choose a different service.

[luetage]

@Hausarzt

I wonder how many potential users / customers simply give up due to the current reputation system...

To put this more bluntly than @WildEnte: Vivaldi gains nothing from people using their webmail service, it only has the potential to make money from its browser users. Therefore it doesn’t matter whether someone gives up. Vivaldi doesn’t have customers, all the services are free so far (might change with the recent Invisv development). In any case, Vivaldi still provided “unlimited” webmail access for years and only the overhead of dealing with spammers stopped that.

[DoctorG]

@Hausarzt said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:

I wonder how many potential users / customers simply give up due to the current reputation system...

I wonder about users who complain not getting a gift immediately. Webmail account is a gift from Vivaldi company, not a paid service they can complain on like customers when not delivered.

[kfjhgfdjhoijgd]

This post is deleted!

[Hausarzt]

@WildEnte @DoctorG @luetage I get the point -- and you're probably right... I just felt a little sympathy for an elderly user ("an old timer" @grovem).

[viirax]

I do have to say that the fact that there's not really any way to know how close you are to being able to use the webmail, at least as far as I'm aware, is a bit annoying, personally I've downloaded the browser and will be trying it out so I'll probably get it at some point. However I'm also in need of an email address that's more privacy focused, preferably sooner rather than later, as another service I have an account on has on old hotmail address on it that's been on life support for half a decade just for that one account, and every other privacy based option have just not been accepted.

Do users get any kind of notification whenever they're eligible for a webmail address, or do you just have to check whether or not you're able to log in every once in a while?

[luetage]

@viirax Get ddg email protection ☛ https://duckduckgo.com/email/. Use it with your current email then switch to whatever (e.g. Vivaldi email), the duck address will stay the same.

[viirax]

@luetage Forgot to mention they've also said they have issues with various forwarding options that I've mentioned as well.

Edit: Seems I have gained access to the webmail as I checked again after posting this comment, I still do feel like it'd be nice to have some kind of indication for how far off you are from gaining access though.

[heymtj]

@DoctorG The problem here is that Vivaldi is holding steadfast to a rigid adherence to the rule. As someone who has participated in the Vivaldi forums previously, I should be able to have access to an email if I delete a previous account. Currently there is no grey area in which to utilize one's basic analytical skills to choose an outcome that fits the situation. All or nothing solutions like this alienate people, regardless of how you feel about the issue.

Don't participate in a culture where it's ride or die "get out if you don't like it then," closed-minded thought.

I don't think any of the actual responses to this, in this thread, were responding in good faith and it clearly shows as each seem to be defending the decision like it were how their forefather's did it and their forefather's before them. The approach of the feedback giver will never matter if their isn't good faith exchange that ensues. No one is attacking your beloved Vivaldi and certainly no one is asking for them to risk an issue with getting overloaded with spam, but it's fair to discuss this as it's a very specific message that is being sent to us users, regardless of length as a user. (I've been using Vivaldi since about 2018?ish?) And the message doesn't feel like it fits with the image of Vivaldi itself.

I'm interested to understand more about how this is the only way to handle this and how the team envisions this fitting with the mission statement as imaged here in the screenshot. Specifically I'd like to understand how this reactionary and discussion stifling culture adheres to the last line in the mission statement.

"...And they want to be heard."

You can disagree here, you don't have to want change, but the rhetoric I've been seeing (being forced, now, to interact with you) is that anyone with negative feedback should be shut down. I do not enjoy communities like that, and I can't imagine anyone on the other end of that, like OP here, would feel good about it. I refuse to believe that any one here hasn't had that experience. It sours one on a product/brand, and it is hard to recover from that. I hope none of you takes this person's write-up as anything but feedback as you go off and have your private thoughts on this, mulling it over and ultimately deciding on your opinion. But, OP doesn't sound like they needs to hear the same thing over and over again. I'm sure they understand the impetus of this, but like me seems to be unable to reconcile this anti-user decision with the image that Vivaldi wants to present.

Again, this is just something that should be taken as feedback and under consideration as your user base is (hopefully) going to grow with the amount of backlash large companies are taking for their terrible handling of user data and privacy.

There are some options that could even benefit the company.

In the end, having a nebulous points tracking system that we only know about but can't see, interact with, or what-have-you... seems a lot like someone over there is just deciding to flip a switch once they've decided they like you.

As someone who has donated, purchased gear, and participated in prior bug reporting and troubleshooting in the past, I don't think that this black and white system is beneficial to the overall health of the product.

I want to use Vivaldi and I want to rep it with my email, but if this continues down a road of stifling user feedback then I don't know how much longer Vivaldi deserves to have the public's trust and backing.

[edwardp]

https://vivaldi.com/blog/community/two-factor-authentication-for-vivaldi-accounts/#Vivaldi_Webmail_access_is_now_linked_to_a_reputation_system

This clearly explains why access to the privilege is now based on a reputation system.

[Ayespy]

@heymtj If you have a better way to prevent Vivaldi WebMail from being used as a spam factory (thereby destroying the utility of the service), you are welcome to propose it.

The system to earn webmail has literally nothing at all to do with the popularity (or lack thereof) of a user's posts. (there are things like sync, blogging, participating in Vivaldi Social) that contribute to your earning webmail irrespective of whether anything you post in the forums will be construed as "negative" or "positive" feedback. There are users here who have earned webmail and whose input is almost purely negative. Practically all they do is complain, slag and insult Vivaldi and and point out how the devs are doing it wrong, everyone else is doing it better, yet here they are.

You can't get webmail instantly with a new user profile essentially because there's no way to prove it's you without management themselves violating Vivaldi's privacy policies.

Webmail at this point amounts to an insider perk. If a person can't be bothered to invest a few hours participating as a Vivaldi community member, yet they simply MUST have webmail, then they'll have to turn to one of the several free webmail offerings on the web - offerings from companies that are using user's webmail accounts to generate income, unlike Vivaldi, for whom providing webmail service is a pure economic loss.

[securely4024]

@luetage i wouldnt use it for important mails tho: https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/email-protection/troubleshooting/lost-access-to-forwarding-account/

[luetage]

@securely4024 That’s not an argument. Your forwarding address is the address you use with your email provider. If you lose access to it, you would lose access to it without ddg too.

[erhnjrt]

I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand it is frustrating to not know how long it will take to get the webmail, on the other if it had targets that could be hit it could easily be gamed, and we would potentially see a lot more bot style posts spammed on here or mastodon (or wherever the targets indicates) which would be a huge backfire IMO

[heymtj]

@Ayespy said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:

@heymtj If you have a better way to prevent Vivaldi WebMail from being used as a spam factory (thereby destroying the utility of the service), you are welcome to propose it.

The system to earn webmail has literally nothing at all to do with the popularity (or lack thereof) of a user's posts. (there are things like sync, blogging, participating in Vivaldi Social) that contribute to your earning webmail irrespective of whether anything you post in the forums will be construed as "negative" or "positive" feedback. There are users here who have earned webmail and whose input is almost purely negative. Practically all they do is complain, slag and insult Vivaldi and and point out how the devs are doing it wrong, everyone else is doing it better, yet here they are.

You can't get webmail instantly with a new user profile essentially because there's no way to prove it's you without management themselves violating Vivaldi's privacy policies.

Webmail at this point amounts to an insider perk. If a person can't be bothered to invest a few hours participating as a Vivaldi community member, yet they simply MUST have webmail, then they'll have to turn to one of the several free webmail offerings on the web - offerings from companies that are using user's webmail accounts to generate income, unlike Vivaldi, for whom providing webmail service is a pure economic loss.

First, let me just thank you for responding and allowing for a discussion around this in this way. It's apparent that the team cares. I understand the dynamics of users and developers (basically my entire life-consuming day job) and so I totally 100% understand that it can be life draining to consistently feel the erosion of your spirit for all the negative feedback.

However, I think the impetus of my message may be obfuscated here by the webmail access thing. My point is rather more specifically how this sort of feedback is being met by the talented and dedicated Vivaldi team. I'm sure, while annoying at this point for you, that you receive many of these messages every day.

Please, do not misconstrue anything I've said here as an attack on the team at Vivaldi specifically, rather just I think it's imperative to the health of any community to point out the sort of image that it is starting to cultivate. If, after what I've said has been said, the team can decide whether or not to take the feedback and do anything about it. People just do not need to be told the things they know over and over. There are just much better ways to receive these messages than the way I've been seeing across the forum.

Secondly, the problem isn't so much that there is any sort of issue with a requirement to participate in the community on the surface of it, but if that community is combative, rigid, and (seemingly from the outside) deaf to that feedback, it does not encourage it. Clearly there is a grind here and I think it bears constant scrutiny to find that balance of security, pragmatism, and avoiding isolating the people supporting the product.

I understand not wanting to allow users access to the email side of things and where you are coming from on this. Further, I understand not wanting to allow the purchase of merch or a donation to get someone a perk like webmail. There's always the worry of slippery slope here, but I also think it's an option. The longer I think about it the more I love the problem for its wrinkles.

That being said, I'd love the change to come up with a few solutions and present them here. Let me know if creating another thread, adding to a different thread, or just keeping this here would be most beneficial.

Brainstorming, here. Likely things everyone has thought of and maybe some that haven't been taken under real consideration.

Keep in mind that I don't know that there is a one size fits all solution here, but I am interested in possibly supplementing your current 1 option system with something that might allow for some flexibility.

• Pay for it - I'm sure this has been discussed, but if there was a monthly subscription, or some sort of license (side note could be sold on the vivaldi webstore), for something like a 10 GB storage plan just for email or something, I personally would be willing to pay for it as I am now at an age where I can afford to support the products and services I believe in. It seems like all the infrastructure is essentially there for this too.

• *Donation tier?

• Allow for username changes but do it in a way that discourages abuse of that system. I would even pay for this. MMOs do this all the time and their mission isn't a millionth of as important as I believe Vivaldi's is. I think FFXIV charges

• Add more transparency?

• Give people purpose once they sign up to participate. Currently there are little hints and nudges, but I wonder if there could be some sort of benefit. Even silly gamified tiers? Spitballing here.

I think that the value proposition is in the all-encompassing nature of the product, but if you don't offer the email portion of it then I think it makes the product feel incomplete.

I personally find it very difficult to participate in the communities of all the places that want me to participate in them. Also, since I find it difficult to participate, when I do it's because I feel very passionately about the thing, and thus throw myself into the fray. Since I'm newer to posting regularly, and am willing to do so, would anyone in the know explain if there is any sort of culture or community opinion around vivaldi offering some paid services to offset or cover the cost of things like email and such? If there is, I'm super interested to hear the history on that if anyone has time (different thread or PM of course).

Anyways, probably have too much to say in one post here. Thanks all.

EDIT: Y'all probably going to regret asking me to participate

[Ayespy]

@heymtj said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:

if that community is combative, rigid, and (seemingly from the outside) deaf to that feedback,

I hope you don't find the Vivaldi community to possess these traits. I have never found it to be the case.

Be aware, the community and the Vivaldi development Team are essentially unrelated entities. The community has a couple of community managers who are Vivaldi staff, and otherwise is composed of users and volunteers (such has myself). What people talk about in the community is not necessarily reflective of developer priorities. There are a couple of developers commenting in the community at present more than usual, pursuant to developing more information on a couple of bugs they are trying to slay - but that's exceptional, not routine.

So you will find users have the opinions they have, and have the attitudes and likes and dislikes that they have, and the only thing consistent between discussions is that moderators like me try to keep the peace and ambassadors, also volunteers, tend to be concerned with how well people do or don't like Vivaldi.

[vzagoruyko]

@Hausarzt I feel the same sympathy to @grovem as I am in the same boat. But I guess the rules are the rules and we must follow. Though if this is anti-spam feature, I would rather be more than happy to provide my phone number to confirm my identity... well

[vzagoruyko]

@heymtj said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:

Pay for it - I'm sure this has been discussed, but if there was a monthly subscription, or some sort of license (side note could be sold on the vivaldi webstore), for something like a 10 GB storage plan just for email or something, I personally would be willing to pay for it as I am now at an age where I can afford to support the products and services I believe in. It seems like all the infrastructure is essentially there for this too.

*Donation tier?

Absolutely!!! I would pay to support this product if it's good. But how do I know if it's good if I can't try it? And in order to try it, I need to participate and be social. I do not have any questions at this point of time for which I can't find the answers by simply google-ing it.
I would also donate. I can afford it.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I am totally with you here!