Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System
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@Ayespy said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:
@heymtj If you have a better way to prevent Vivaldi WebMail from being used as a spam factory (thereby destroying the utility of the service), you are welcome to propose it.
The system to earn webmail has literally nothing at all to do with the popularity (or lack thereof) of a user's posts. (there are things like sync, blogging, participating in Vivaldi Social) that contribute to your earning webmail irrespective of whether anything you post in the forums will be construed as "negative" or "positive" feedback. There are users here who have earned webmail and whose input is almost purely negative. Practically all they do is complain, slag and insult Vivaldi and and point out how the devs are doing it wrong, everyone else is doing it better, yet here they are.
You can't get webmail instantly with a new user profile essentially because there's no way to prove it's you without management themselves violating Vivaldi's privacy policies.
Webmail at this point amounts to an insider perk. If a person can't be bothered to invest a few hours participating as a Vivaldi community member, yet they simply MUST have webmail, then they'll have to turn to one of the several free webmail offerings on the web - offerings from companies that are using user's webmail accounts to generate income, unlike Vivaldi, for whom providing webmail service is a pure economic loss.
First, let me just thank you for responding and allowing for a discussion around this in this way. It's apparent that the team cares. I understand the dynamics of users and developers (basically my entire life-consuming day job) and so I totally 100% understand that it can be life draining to consistently feel the erosion of your spirit for all the negative feedback.
However, I think the impetus of my message may be obfuscated here by the webmail access thing. My point is rather more specifically how this sort of feedback is being met by the talented and dedicated Vivaldi team. I'm sure, while annoying at this point for you, that you receive many of these messages every day.
Please, do not misconstrue anything I've said here as an attack on the team at Vivaldi specifically, rather just I think it's imperative to the health of any community to point out the sort of image that it is starting to cultivate. If, after what I've said has been said, the team can decide whether or not to take the feedback and do anything about it. People just do not need to be told the things they know over and over. There are just much better ways to receive these messages than the way I've been seeing across the forum.
Secondly, the problem isn't so much that there is any sort of issue with a requirement to participate in the community on the surface of it, but if that community is combative, rigid, and (seemingly from the outside) deaf to that feedback, it does not encourage it. Clearly there is a grind here and I think it bears constant scrutiny to find that balance of security, pragmatism, and avoiding isolating the people supporting the product.
I understand not wanting to allow users access to the email side of things and where you are coming from on this. Further, I understand not wanting to allow the purchase of merch or a donation to get someone a perk like webmail. There's always the worry of slippery slope here, but I also think it's an option. The longer I think about it the more I love the problem for its wrinkles.
That being said, I'd love the change to come up with a few solutions and present them here. Let me know if creating another thread, adding to a different thread, or just keeping this here would be most beneficial.
Brainstorming, here. Likely things everyone has thought of and maybe some that haven't been taken under real consideration.
Keep in mind that I don't know that there is a one size fits all solution here, but I am interested in possibly supplementing your current 1 option system with something that might allow for some flexibility.
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Pay for it - I'm sure this has been discussed, but if there was a monthly subscription, or some sort of license (side note could be sold on the vivaldi webstore), for something like a 10 GB storage plan just for email or something, I personally would be willing to pay for it as I am now at an age where I can afford to support the products and services I believe in. It seems like all the infrastructure is essentially there for this too.
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*Donation tier?
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Allow for username changes but do it in a way that discourages abuse of that system. I would even pay for this. MMOs do this all the time and their mission isn't a millionth of as important as I believe Vivaldi's is. I think FFXIV charges
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Add more transparency?
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Give people purpose once they sign up to participate. Currently there are little hints and nudges, but I wonder if there could be some sort of benefit. Even silly gamified tiers? Spitballing here.
I think that the value proposition is in the all-encompassing nature of the product, but if you don't offer the email portion of it then I think it makes the product feel incomplete.
I personally find it very difficult to participate in the communities of all the places that want me to participate in them. Also, since I find it difficult to participate, when I do it's because I feel very passionately about the thing, and thus throw myself into the fray. Since I'm newer to posting regularly, and am willing to do so, would anyone in the know explain if there is any sort of culture or community opinion around vivaldi offering some paid services to offset or cover the cost of things like email and such? If there is, I'm super interested to hear the history on that if anyone has time (different thread or PM of course).
Anyways, probably have too much to say in one post here. Thanks all.
EDIT: Y'all probably going to regret asking me to participate
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@heymtj said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:
if that community is combative, rigid, and (seemingly from the outside) deaf to that feedback,
I hope you don't find the Vivaldi community to possess these traits. I have never found it to be the case.
Be aware, the community and the Vivaldi development Team are essentially unrelated entities. The community has a couple of community managers who are Vivaldi staff, and otherwise is composed of users and volunteers (such has myself). What people talk about in the community is not necessarily reflective of developer priorities. There are a couple of developers commenting in the community at present more than usual, pursuant to developing more information on a couple of bugs they are trying to slay - but that's exceptional, not routine.
So you will find users have the opinions they have, and have the attitudes and likes and dislikes that they have, and the only thing consistent between discussions is that moderators like me try to keep the peace and ambassadors, also volunteers, tend to be concerned with how well people do or don't like Vivaldi.
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@heymtj said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:
Pay for it - I'm sure this has been discussed, but if there was a monthly subscription, or some sort of license (side note could be sold on the vivaldi webstore), for something like a 10 GB storage plan just for email or something, I personally would be willing to pay for it as I am now at an age where I can afford to support the products and services I believe in. It seems like all the infrastructure is essentially there for this too.
*Donation tier?
Absolutely!!! I would pay to support this product if it's good. But how do I know if it's good if I can't try it? And in order to try it, I need to participate and be social. I do not have any questions at this point of time for which I can't find the answers by simply google-ing it.
I would also donate. I can afford it.Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I am totally with you here!
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@TheQuantumAlpha said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:
@WildEnte I know a few people who don't want to be public, don't want to be part of the community as is, but use the Vivaldi webmail. They did purchase a lot of merch and donations. They just don't want to be on the internet, social internet.
As far as I understand, if they use sync between their devices or just connect to the sync server with their account on one device, they will eventually gain access. I am very much against a system where donations or merch purchases are counting towards webmail access (not sure if they do count or not): the moment that people literally buy access to webmail, even if it's via a proxy, that service can be seen as a purchased product (along with everything paying customers expect) rather than a perk that was earned. Leaving every sort of money flow aside leaves Vivaldi the freedom to operate. Every system will leave someone unhappy.
Usually on Win11 running Vivaldi Snapshot builds. Opinionated about working efficiently with email. Folders are evil | Mail workflow: receive, read, reply, mark as read, done.
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@TheQuantumAlpha and other future users will get webmail even without providing phone numbers.
Maybe those folks will hold back with donations and merch purchases until webmail has been granted. -
@WildEnte said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:
I am very much against a system where donations or merch purchases are counting towards webmail access (not sure if they do count or not): the moment that people literally buy access to webmail, even if it's via a proxy, that service can be seen as a purchased product (along with everything paying customers expect) rather than a perk that was earned. Leaving every sort of money flow aside leaves Vivaldi the freedom to operate. Every system will leave someone unhappy.
As far as I am aware, donations and/or merchandise purchases do not count towards Webmail access. I believe such funds support the development of the Vivaldi browser.
I agree with your position.
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@TheQuantumAlpha I so agree with this unfortunately
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I also hope I can get webmail soon, I also have a question, will webmail permissions be turned off? For example, I don't have much time to communicate here in the future
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@999geek no, once gained webmail is only turned off if the service is abused / not used per terms and conditions, for example if you send spam emails.
You don't need to communicate on the forum or write blog posts. Just using the browser while being logged into Sync is enough. Ultimately Vivaldi just wants to make sure that the email account is provided to actual users of its products and services, not to folks that just want to have a free email address.
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@WildEnte Thanks, hopefully I can qualify for this soon as I don't want to use the gmail ones anymore!
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@999geek just to avoid confusion later: the email address is always [email protected] (in your case, account_name = 999geek).
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@999geek And be aware, Vivaldi mail storage is 5GB. It cannot be expanded.
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Agree with the OP: the systems is tedious, the criteria are unclear, and the excuse that otherwise the service would be abused by spammers seems a stretch.
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@amargo welcome to the forum.
Vivaldi is not trying to be a freemail provider. There are plenty of email services to choose from. Feel free to consider whether or not you may be happier with what they offer -
@amargo The system was already being abused by spammers before the reputation system was adopted. The new system basically put a stop to that. The criteria are unclear on purpose. It is a partial protection against gaming the system.
As for tedium, this is a value usually reserved for things you have to do. You do not have to get a Vivaldi email address. It's a perk for active community members, (and active members get it without trying) not something users have to get, nor that Vivaldi has a duty to provide to anyone. If a user finds it too "tedious" to get an email address, then they need to just not do it. There are free email addresses available on the web, by the bushel. One may go anywhere to get one.
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@TheQuantumAlpha It was less effective than hoped (spoofed phone numbers are too easy to come by), too strenuously objected to by a number of users, and it ruled out anyone who did not have text messaging capability.
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@TheQuantumAlpha said in Webmail Privilege Requirements via the Reputation System:
@Ayespy curious... Was the previous phone number requirement effective? I might know the answer already, but curious nonetheless.
This is a quote from another thread about the effectiveness of switching to the reputation system:
@jane-n said in It is good to be warned beforehand:
It has indeed reduced the number of spam accounts and emails significantly
And in 2022, after they had implemented the phone verification system they said that it was helping but not stopping spam accounts.
@jane-n said in I can't log in to forum.vivaldi.net anymore; Because hcaptcha blocks us.:
Phone verification is only required from users, who wish to use Vivaldi's email service and/or the blogging platform. As mentioned, it's a spam prevention measure and, though, it hasn't eliminated spam, it has reduced it
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@WildEnte Great explanation! I kind of felt the social aspect of it was a barrier at first too but I'm actually beginning to enjoy it. And I'd much rather be part of a community than pay a subscription.
