Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems
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@Catweazle That depends on how old the computer is. Ten-years-old? Shouldn't be a problem. 30-years-old? Unless you feel like replacing both the motherboard and the hard disk, forget it!
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@Eggcorn said in Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems:
From the blog post:
Once that happens, the question becomes even more pointed: Support old, obsolete OS versions, or the newer versions? The correct answer is, of course, to support the newer versions, and retire the older ones.
There's a third option: Continue to give security and stability updates for obsolete OS versions. I doubt Vivaldi has the resources to do that, but maybe Firefox or Opera could.
I don't know if you noticed the preceding sentence and put it into context; that particular case was about the tools used to build the application no longer supporting the OS version (and possibly not the relevant CPUs).
Once that point is reached, the only practical way to support the unsupported OS versions is to build two (or more) different executables, using different compiler versions and SDKs. To do that using the same source code version probably also requires patching every old OS specific code location if it would break with the newer compilers and SDKs. Building multiple versions means performing a LOT more testing (at least double), using old, hard to find hardware.
I don't know what is included in the upcoming Windows SDK version for Windows 11 that the Chromium team is currently testing, but my guess is that it may not support Win8.1 or earlier, and if so it might explain the Chromium team's decision to no longer support those old versions.
And all of that assumes you have full control over the source code. Reverting the upstream removals is very problematic. You can't miss a single one, and every time upstream changes the code in that location you have to figure out a fix that does not break old OS functionality and/or new OS functionality. We already use 2-3 weeks to get a new Chromium version integrated and working, and this kind of thing could easily add a week, or more.
Firefox might be able to do that, since they have their own source code, but they will run into issues with compilers and SDKs too, eventually. As for Opera, they are, like Vivaldi, based on Chromium, and will encounter the same challenges.
Even if you meant to say that we could fork off the current version and backport security patches, that is not going to work for long. There is no need for us to even test it. A few years ago, we had to skip several Chromium versions while we adapted to changes that seriously broke our functionality. Towards the end, we could barely apply less than half the security patches from 3 or 4 Chromium versions ahead of our own version. That is, after just 5 months it was very difficult to backport patches, and it was not just because the code did not exist in the earlier version, but because the code had been significantly rewritten since our version. Imagine doing that a year or two later, one might be lucky to be able to backport 1% of the patches. The end result would likely be a browser that is even less secure than the OS it is running on.
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@ingolftopf said in Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems:
For a start/change to Linux I would recommend 'Q4Os'.
https://q4os.orgBased on 'Debian-Stable', more recent programs (packages) can be installed easily via 'Debian-Backports' and you still have a 'rock-solid' system.
Q4OS can be installed very easily, like a Windows program, without stick, DVD installation, on a Windows computer, beside or completely.
Like the old, no longer maintained 'Wubi' Ubuntu installation.
I am very enthusiastic about this, and have often recommended it with success.
There is also a Jabber/XMPP room for: xmpp:[email protected]?joinWhere were you when I was making threads asking for help with my netbook over the years (starting way back when XP support ended?
After a long time trying a couple of other distros which all had their little problems with the hardware, I eventually discovered Q4OS and it was perfect out of the box. Then when Chrome dropped 32 bit I discovered I could install 64 bit Q4OS as well! It's the only thing keeping the netbook relevant (not that I use it much these days)...
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@lonm: Planned obsolescence is not limited to hardware. I know a lot of people don't realize this, but for some of us, a OS costs a lot of money.
You want me to install Linux? Sure. Are you going to sponsor the new hard drive that I need to put it on, so I don't lose all my important data? Are you going to compensate me for all the precious time away from work I'm going to waste setting everything up how I need it? Fixing the things that were working fine and wasn't broken before? What are you going to do about all the software I need that only runs on Windows and not on Linux?
Anyway, all I'm saying is, there is a lot of irony in Vivaldi dropping support for one of the last versions of Windows that doesn't actively spy on you, while supposedly being all about "privacy".
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@User5765 It is Microsoft that dropped support for legacy OS, not Vivaldi. And Vivaldi uses the Chrome code, so it cannot support legacy Windows OS, even if it wanted to. It has already been explained why not.
If you buy pretty much any software that connects to the Internet, you have to keep it up to date. Would you use antivirus software that was a decade old if it was never patched?
With Windows, you do not need to install other AV β Windows Defender and Firewall is good enough for most users. However, if you want to keep your PC protected, you need to upgrade.
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@User5765 said in Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems:
Are you going to compensate me for all the precious time away from work I'm going to waste setting everything up how I need it?
The only compensation you may be owed is a refund, except you didn't pay for Vivaldi in the first place, so that's already taken care of. My advice is to switch to Opera or Firefox, if one of those browsers still gets secretly updates and you're not willing to switch to a modern operating system.
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@ingolftopf Q4OS is nice,
even if I'm a bit sad it doesn't offer tweaked xfce variant
It does, I just have selected it. Now I'm with an overbloated plasma desktop with konqueror and vivaldi is not in the featured apps
Well if the UEFI boot is not dead - or if Win11 won't the destroy the dual boot - I'll switch to my beloved xfce and keep this side os with me ^^ -
@Pesala Opera is on Chromium too, itβs likely they drop support as well. As for Firefoxβ¦ they are considering support β https://www.techgoing.com/mozilla-is-considering-extending-firefox-support-on-windows-7-and-8-1/. Itβs not definite. Both browser makers have far more developers than Vivaldi.
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"Goodbye... planned obsolescence"
Still in win7 on my upgraded ThinkPad T440p. With Linux Mint in parallel.
Vivaldi v5.6 will be the last to support w7, then so be it, that will be the last version I will be using on w7.
You can fall for the End-Of-Life gimmick, and the "or live with the risk of having their computer attacked." fearmongering... I don't.
I've been in the IT business since the 80s, and I've heard it all (up to now).
Buy the "New & Improved" seduction, they say... but eventually the computer is no longer serving me... I'm serving the computer/software mega-industries.
I won't blame Vivaldi's team for keeping up with Google's chromium platform race to maintain their monopoly and control. That is the business model, isn't it?
As much as I think your article is filled with self-justifications and worn out clichΓ©s, I understand, and speculate, that Vivaldi must follow the "big guys" to keep its sponsors.
So let's not kid ourselves with such nonsense rhetoric, please.
Regards.
PS. THEY always use the same technic, create fear & propose seductive solutions. If you don't get that, by all means go back to sleep. -
@zeLounge , I don't see the thing as dramatic, I have survived from the changes since pre-Windows times with MS DOS and various equipment changes. I have rarely lost anything, documents, photos, videos currently still have valid formats to be able to access, in applications I have always preferred FOSS and most of the commercial soft has excellent OpenSource alternatives.
For this reason I have not lost financially either. I didn't have any problems either when successive Windows lost support, using some Linux distro, which is always available.
The only investment is the time to configure the system to the needs. After many years Windows 7 has reached the end of the road and it is not such a big problem to go to 10 or Linux, to continue having compatibility with the browser. Why is this going to touch Vivaldi and all the others too, even if one or the other endured months? anything else.This touches Vivaldi and also everyone else, even FF, maybe a month or so later. Throughout our lives, we are left to invent unheard-of words and remind ourselves with "love" of the ancestors of these great monopolies.
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@eggcorn: I'm running a 10-year-old ThinkPad: few OS running at the same time in vBox, encode videos in x265, 3D CAD... no sweat (well, maybe a bit hot).
20-year-old computers: you'd be surprise how well they run with the appropriate Linux distribution.
30-year-old computers: Still could be good as typewriters.In the 60s, people watched 20in B/W TV. Now you got to have a 6ft wide 4K panel, otherwise you're out. Really ?? Are people happier with a 6ft wide TV ??
My point is that in the progression, there is a point where more is not better. Win7 is a good example of a mature OS. All newer versions have not brought significant improvement other than messing up the UI. The argument of newer hardware is Marketing BS to maintain a steady stream of revenue. Chromium... same BS, they're pushing the need for faster CPU/GPU, more memory, more disk, more, more, more...; same with website/streaming... you need a minimum of 20Mbps to surf the net... pushing for faster & faster datacenters.
Are we happier?
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@Catweazle Love your avatar
Here & now, this on its own, is not a drama, I agree. And I relate very well with your few decades experience.My sounding dramatic, is witnessing the surrounding & intensifying push from all major organizations toward a "global technocracy" (or something like that).
More & more, the hardware/software is "controlled" by Big tech. Some android software won't run if the google services is not connected. It's becoming almost impossible to repair your own stuff. Hell, you can buy a 200,000 John Deere tractor, but you're prohibited from repairing it, it is software locked.
We live in a full consent manufacturing times. Gullibly seduced, and bagged like chickens.
To me, it's a bit dramatic. I wish I would take it as calmly as you.
Kind regards, & thx for your feedback. -
to have a robust Last W7 Snap and Stable versions to keep browsing for as long as we can / need.
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@zeLounge said in Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems:
30-year-old computers: Still could be good as typewriters.
At that point: You're better off with a cheap but more modern computer that can use the Internet. That would also be good as a typewriter. Aside from some specialized uses, or if you just want to own a piece of computer history: A 30-year-old computer is utterly impractical.
Unless, of course, you replace the motherboard and hard disk. If such an old computer will accept a modern motherboard and hard disk: You could get yourself a historic 30-year-old computer, that's practical for daily use.
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@Eggcorn Point taken
Talking about owing a piece of history, about 10 years ago a friend of mine had recovered an HP3000 series III (from the 80s) mini computer system... Main Unit the size of a fridge, 640MB drives the size of a dishwasher... Still working, on MPE... What a blast.... on the electrical bill.
I guess I'm now part of history as well.
Thx for your feedback.
Cheers. -
Big tech in 2020: We all support the new green plan, watch us doing more backsliding green propagandas that make you feel really good about "us" while we continue polluting the planet for great profits...
Big tech in 2023: We are still fully committed to the new green plan, watch us bricking all your old PC & laptop to fill the beautiful green landscape with fully functional computer hardware...
What so "green" about these new green plan anyway? I have a feeling it's more about sucking all the green dollars from consumer than preserving the green environment to combat the ever so ominous global warming, or whatever climate change that they are suppose to care about. LOL -
@dude99 Yeah, don't trust big companies that claim to be the good guys fighting for what's right. It's usually a load of hot air. Trust the ones who give you a good product at a good price!
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@Pesala said in Pulling the plug on expired Operating Systems:
I just accept that it makes economic sense to upgrade my PC every ten years or so. Performance increases by an order of magnitude in that period.
- 2001 Windows ME
- 2013 Windows 7 64-bit
- 2021 Windows 10 (my current hardware)
I plan to keep using Windows 10. I only upgraded to Windows 10 on my Windows 7 PC because time was running out to do it for free.
Hard disagree. It was true in the 90s weere every few years that difference was so massive to be clearly visible to even non-PC-savvy persons. However that hasn't been the case for almost 2 decades now.
For the average PC user, and their daily usage requirements, a 10 year old PC will not be much different than a 1 day old PC.
The only major difference they would notice is the improve load times from an SSD, and that can easily be added to a 10 year old PC simply by swapping drives.
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The hardware has not experienced such great advances in PCs in the last 10 years, apart from having a little more RAM and the generalization of the SSD, nothing that is not possible to upgrade on an old PC.
Of course, the big companies have transferred the obsolescence of the Hardware (practically all PCs last perfectly 10 or more years) to the software (separate printers, with replacement cartridges that cost as much as a new printer).But still it is inevitable that an OS reaches its compatibility limits with different current computing demands. Windows 7 was released in 2009 and has outlived many PCs, but I think having to replace it now, after 13+ years, doesn't qualify as planned obsolescence, wouldn't be fair. Even if you're using Linux, you'll find that over the years also a certain distro will become obsolete for many tasks, if not updated.
Naturally, for those who use the PC for office apps and little else, they can get by perfectly with an old Pentium with a tube screen, but if you want to be able to take advantage of new web formats, watch movies in a decent resolution, want to play something other than old Space Invaders, designing with realistic graphics applications, without dying while the images render, requires equipment and software to match, despite the fact that some cry out to heaven for having to update their software or hardware, who cannot find VHS tapes for their recorder, cassettes for his Walkman, having to buy a new TV to be able to watch DTT broadcasts, Super8 cameras, etc..
Technologies advance exponentially by giant steps and this makes it necessary to update, yes or yes and we only have to do it in the least traumatic way possible, if we want to take advantage of these new technologies, but this is left to the decision of the needs of each.
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@eggcorn: You don't get it. It's not that I'm just "unwilling" to switch OS, it's that I don't have the money, thus time to fix what essentially isn't broken.
I'm not saying that Vivaldi itself is liable to pay me anything, but that someone has to pay me for the time I cannot work, because otherwise I may not be able to afford rent or eat for the week.