The biggest browser fails of 2021

[guigirl]

@kerygma said in The biggest browser fails of 2021:

I've no need to look for "biggest fails" in browsers

And yet, here you are.

[guigirl]

@kerygma said in The biggest browser fails of 2021:

since your post seems to suggest I should shut up (in a belittling way), I'll oblige you

Nope, not my intention at all. I was simply poking fun, aka, trying to be flippant. This thread, i agree, is rather dubious, & tribal. Most of the time i just feel amused by how riled some peeps get about "their" thingie, vs other thingies, where for "thingie" you can substitute browser, OS, colour, religion, politics, car, et al. So long as others agree on Nightly, ArchLinux, purple, Zarquonism, bleeped, & EVs, then we're all good. NB: This post might contain further traces of irony & !=seriousness.

Note: The one thing about which i'm not joking, is the execrable habit once again of merkans buggering language, then their deplorable handiwork sweeping the world. Fail is a verb, yet these days the merkan-inspired lexicon misuses it as a noun, eschewing the actual extant noun of failure. Sigh.

[Priest72]

@himmelssheriff
Of course you could turn your subjective comment around and say that vivaldi does several things that other browsers do not like the great customisation options.

Of course speed will be rather an individual experience taking into account the several thousand different configurations available in the world which in itself makes benchmarking tests rather a silly idea and should never be taken into account when choosing a browser.

I have tried most browsers and i find vivaldi the most unique and is actually quite faster than the others but of course this should never be taken as a generic comment but rather more a personal individual experience unique to me.

Different strokes for different folks.

[cmstazan]

@ayespy

Which, if you read what I actually said, doesn't change anything I stated.

I said the base code is already worked out for them, I didn't say all the work was done. And given that you can build Chromium directly for iOS, they don't even need to look at third party projects for the base code. Also, the Blink and the Apple-WebKit engines are both based on original Webkit/KHTML developed by KDE, thus very similar. The engine and the UI are actually quite interchangeable, which multiple browsers have demonstrated for decades.

And really, these days there are only 2 browser engines that are actually being used: Webkit/KHTML (and all the rebranding: Blink, EdgeHTML, apple-webkit, etc) and Gecko.

As for "just cosmetic changes": actually, there is lots of components to Osiris, Brave, etc that are not mere "cosmetic" changes. Also, Vivaldi is a UI... the underlying engine didn't change, doing so would break website capability.

"Vivaldi has a unique UI which is incompatible with Chrome": that is a rather ridiculous and ignorant comment. Chrome and Vivaldi (and Brave, Osiris, and others) are both based on Chromium opensource code. So, the UI being "incompatible with Chrome" is irrelevant. If you want to talk about "UI incompatibilities", Firefox, which is entirely incompatible with Chromium, switched engines while maintaining its mobile UI, yet uses the same engine on iOS as all of the others.

Then you also have to take into account that Chrome and Vivaldi are not all that different since they share an engine and all the extensions are capatible. So things are far more similar than you or Vivaldi are claiming them to be.

Despite this "unique UI", they still have the base already developed to work with in which to implement those UI adjustments. Also, it is not entirely unique, it has some features that are currently-unique (such as the second row tab stacks - which Vivaldi is not the only ones that have/had that - which is not needed on a mobile version, basic tab groups are more than enough... not to mention, Vivaldi handicapped the feature by removing the ability to pin tabs within the stacks), but have not always been unique and/or are not suitable for a mobile browser any way. As with every mobile browser it will not have all the features the desktop version does, nor does a mobile browser need such; it doesn't need the level of customization. The biggest thing a mobile browser needs besides rendering pages properly and a simple easy to use/reach interface is syncing of bookmarks, history, and open tabs. Get those done and work on integrating the rest in future updates. Which means there is even less to code for.

Yes, I know, they have said "iOS version is coming", "it is planned", etc. for years now. They have also said "it's not a priority" on multiple occasions. The reasoning given has always been the same (which you stated) claiming everything has to be redone, which is simply not true as pointed out.

The lack of an iOS version is exactly why I and so many others cannot use Vivaldi. And don't try to say there is an extension that will sync bookmarks as a work-around, because all of them suck and fail to properly merge and maintain hierarchal state between browsers; plus most want to create a new menu rather than truly sync, which is problematic in itself.

[pafflick]

@kerygma said in The biggest browser fails of 2021:

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is. Is it to make Vivaldi users feel better about their browser at the expense of other browsers?

This thread is a comment section under our blog - here's the link to the blog post, in case you've missed it. We've featured some of the biggest fails of browsers not to mock anyone, as we've included ourselves on the list as well. It was more of an end-of-year summary type of blog. Check it out, if you have a few minutes to spare!

[Ayespy]

@cmstazan Cut to the chase: if iOS were easy, it would already have been done. No one is uniquely brilliant, so as to suggest to the Vivaldi Team a strategy to get it done that they have not already thought of or taken into consideration. It's not like Vivaldi is dim and someone else is smart, meaning that if Vivaldi would just attack the problem from the "right" or "easy" way, they would succeed although to date they have failed.

The knowledge set of the Vivaldi founder and core development team extends across browser engines (including developing their own) from at least 1995 to the present. They have been responsible for innovation that every browser known to man has, to a greater or lesser degree, copied. They have gotten a unique browser approved for iOS in the past. Your comments here are unlikely to school them.

As I said, they are committed to an iOS browser. They will get one done. It will take as long as it takes.

[cmstazan]

@ayespy
Shall I supply and light a match for that straw man?

No one is discounting the Vivaldi team's intelligence, knowledge, or experience (in fact, you are the only one in this direct conversation that has made any such claim in that respect), that is actually rather meaningless when one fails answer legitimate market demand in a timely manner and for years have dismissed such market demands, repeating the same old thing. As I said, the Vivaldi Team has stated for years that iOS really is not a priority (see Reddit, these very Vivaldi forums, and many others).

Programming for iOS is no more complicated than it is for Android. The complication is not the programing, but the AppStore approval process, which has always been the case and is well documented (to which, the AppStore approval process by all accounts is rather ridiculously burdensome).

• April 2015: People were volunteering to help program the iOS version (based on quick search result of these very forums, could be even earlier if I search Reddit and other forums), before the first beta was ever released. So, from the start, people were calling for mobile versions for both iOS and Android (I know, because I have been here since the beginning).

• Vivaldi released its first beta November 3rd, 2015

• Vivaldi released its first full version in 2016.

• Vivaldi for Android beta was released in 2018.

• For 7 years, the calls for iOS, for all intents and purposes, have been ignored. For 4 years, Android has had Vivaldi, yet not iOS.

We are not talking a mere couple months, we are not talking a year or two. We are talking multiple years, nearly a decade, of market demand and yet, no definitive indication progress toward iOS support.

And if what you claim is true, that there is a commitment towards an iOS version, Vivaldi has negged on providing any indication of progress toward it in 7 years (I know, I regularly check for a Vivaldi iOS beta - TestFlight sign-up). In fact, as I already stated, the very opposite of your claims has been stated time and time again.

Pesala (An Vivaldi Ambassador) said on 02-15-2020: "Never say never, but it is unlikely in the foreseeable future." In other words: the 5 and 10 year plan does not contain iOS in it. Or are you going to tell us that Vivaldi doesn't have a 5 and 10 year plan?

Everything you stated is meaningless to the topic at hand and the points made. In fact, you haven't even addressed a single key point that I or those of the many others for the last 7 years.

In fact, I already debunked the claim you made here and many others times about the browser engine being limiting factor, that because of the engine change, Vivaldi must be rebuilt from scratch, which I directly pointed out is simply not true. Why does Vivaldi have to build from scratch, yet others don't? And if they did (such as the case for Firefox, which brought there's out as soon as Apple made it possible for third-party browsers), they managed to do so quickly.

Also, being that Chromium can be built directly for iOS and Vivaldi is based on Chromium; why such the delay and complication? Why does Vivaldi have to be built from scratch when its base code does not?

Also, there is no such thing as a "chromium engine" (which you seem to like to say). The engine Chromium uses is called Blink.

Again, I will repeat: Vivaldi is a UI. The browser engine and the UI are interchangeable as multiple browsers for decades have demonstrated. For instance, I have used the Firefox UI (pre-quantum) with the webkit or if I felt nostalgic, trident engines. I haven't tried such since I left my programming days behind.

And I repeat: Apple-WebKit and Blink (the browser engine in Chromium, thus the engine of Vivaldi) are both based on WebKit/KHTML developed by KDE. They are not so drastically different from each other. This further illustrates the lack of needing to build from scratch as you keep asserting.

The complaint here that I make and many others have made is valid. Dismissing it as you are does not show good on Vivaldi, nor you. Constantly saying "it is in the works" with nothing to substantiate it in years is dismissing of people.

Basically, this all comes down to two things: project transparency and honesty!

[treego]

Vivaldi is the Best in the West.
Vivaldi is the Beast of the East.

I wish Vivaldi would take over for the UN and bring this world together!

Nothing is impossible for Vivaldi! Bank on it!

[Ayespy]

@cmstazan said in The biggest browser fails of 2021:

for all intents and purposes, have been ignored.

That would not be the case.

Vivaldi does not report progress or behind-the-scenes action. They also don't say, "we're done, but Apple won't let us in." When it's ready, it's ready. And then users hear about it.

Everyone knows about the nightmare of getting approved for the Apple Store.

They do say, and have said, "iOS will be coming. Stay tuned."

"Chromium," "Blink," quibbling. A wide range of users understand "Chromium," while a much smaller subset get the term "Blink." So I, like a lot of the Vivaldi Team, say "Chromium."

Vivaldi is Vivaldi because of its unique UI. The Android UI can't be used on iOS. It requires its own UI employing Swift et al. That's why it has to be written from scratch.

You're not going to get anywhere arguing with me. Hell - I don't even work for Vivaldi. The (very small and overworked) Vivaldi Team, who already build and maintain versions of the browser for Windows 64 and 32, 3 stripes of Linux, Mac OS, Android, said they will get out an iOS version and they will. That's the long and the short of it. They won't mention progress in that regard until the product arrives.

[cmstazan]

@ayespy

Which has been the most hated thing about Vivaldi: lack of disclosure, lack of transparency. And after all these years, do you think that plays into their favor?

Chromium and Blink are distinctly different things, they are not interchangeable. Playing to the ignorance of people does no one any good, least of all that "wide range of users".

No one said the Android UI could be used on iOS. And re-programming to Swift has been done by other, similarly small teams.

Brave started with a team of 2, first code commit was early 2015. Released first desktop version in 2016. By the end of 2016, Brave had written 3 base codes (iOS, Android and desktop) twice over (one on React/Redux and one for the switch to Chromium base). And you want to talk incompatibilities: think about BAT and the wallet integration added in 2017 along with the built-in security features. Interestingly enough, Brave used Firefox iOS for its iOS code base, while using Chromium base for all other platforms.

It took Brave 7 years to reach ~100 member development team. No, Brave doesn't have some of the customization that is nice to have that Vivaldi does on desktop. But when it comes to mobile browsers, that immense amount of customization means nothing and is of no use. Which means what? Oh yeah, less to code, thus less time and resources required.

That is just one sample of the great many browsers out there that have very customized UI and unique features. Basically, similarly small, less funded teams have done in 1-2 years what Vivaldi has failed to do in 7 years. I already mentioned Firefox and its coming to iOS, which is highly customizable, though they do have a large core team as well as outside volunteers contributing.

@ayespy said in The biggest browser fails of 2021:

said they will get out an iOS version and they will.

I literally quoted a Vivaldi ambassador saying what amounts to the opposite.

Yes, I know Vivaldi is a small team, which makes no sense why they rejected people volunteering to help program the iOS version back in 2015.

As for you individually, I respond to you because of your own comments and that you have acted as one of the greatest smoke screens, a distraction from the issues at hand. And don't forget, you started with me first today and stated a lot of things that are simply incorrect; whether you are just repeating Vivaldi team members is irrelevant. We have had much more pleasant interactions in the past.

I have a great respect for the Vivaldi team and the browser created is great, but that doesn't change these facts presented and voicing of the user's concerns. If the team fails to listen to the users concerns, it will be doomed to a repeat of Opera that continues to screw things up to this day (starts off great, then bit by bit the adding of bloat and complication while ignoring user concerns drags it down). I don't want to see Vivaldi turn into another Opera debacle, and I don't think the team does either.

[guigirl]

@kerygma Pls don't worry, tis all good!

What you'll learn better once you've been here longer, is that the forum comprises a wide range of personalities & talents. The talent/skill pool is expansive, as is the "mood" range [some peeps seem invariably serious & formal, others more the converse]. I just happen to occupy the extremely shallow end of the pool.

[Ayespy]

@cmstazan Brave progress and Vivaldi progress cannot be compared. Brave was funded with tens of millions of dollars, much of which was put into advertising and promotion. Vivaldi was self-funded and did not seek, nor did it receive, any outside funding. It doesn't and won't seek outside investment. Further, their target audiences are different.

Brave piggybacks on the Chromium UI. Vivaldi does not. That's relevant.

The two are just completely different kinds of projects. Brave is a financial scheme. Vivaldi is not.

The Vivaldi team will adhere to the same disclosure policies they always have. They will follow the same development path they always have. They will get to an iOS release when they do. As I mentioned, your arguing with me isn't going to change any of this. And they will not respond to advices that they should run their business differently, or change their development direction or strategies.

Believe it or not, Jon did not set up Vivaldi to make a bunch of money or corner the browser market. He started the Vivaldi Browser project to create "a browser for our friends" (these friends initially being users who were cast adrift when Opera changed directions after Jon left the company over difference between where the investors wanted to take the company, and what Jon thought would be best for the browser and the users).

Your position seems to be that Vivaldi not doing things the way you think they should is actually and objectively wrong and bad, and that you know better than they do. I think that's because you think they should be a different kind of business, with different aims than the founders and owners (the employees) of the company do. You're not going to change your mind, Vivaldi is not going to change direction, so I don't know who you think you're trying to convince, here.

[guigirl]

@ayespy Why do i get the distinct feeling that you're just wasting your time?

Human vs Argumentbot. Human will always lose, due to sheer exhaustion.

[npro]

When I think of Brave, I think of this guy. The king of rants. Warning: Mature language & not shy of being political incorrect, (and a true distro-hopper of old times who eats all youtubers for breakfast).

[Ayespy]

@guigirl There is no winning and no losing in internet argumentation. There is no changing of minds.

That's why I don't argue. I seek to inform, and if someone wants to argue rather than be informed, then that turns into wasted energy - both directions. If someone wants to know what's taking iOS so long, it's the size of the team vs the scope of all combined work, plus the balancing of priorities, plus the complexity of the project. If someone wants to know why Jon doesn't run his business to suit their aims rather than his, well, that answer is not forthcoming. And if someone just wants me to admit that Vivaldi is somehow wrong, I'm afraid that's outside the remit of my volunteer efforts here.

[guigirl]

@npro Heehee...

they’re crooks and assholes!

@ayespy said in The biggest browser fails of 2021:

That's why I don't argue

I realise that you did not say that i said you were arguing, but i'm just reinforcing this for clarity. I saw it simply as you interacting with an argubot. The clue's in the name.

[npro]

@guigirl

He created the JavaScript language, which is the plague of our days and the reason the web browser is the heaviest software application on any non-gaming PC, for most web pages retrieve tons of crappy JS and run them until your CPU catches fire!

So true.

[npro]

@npro Bonus: Exactly what happens (google's .webp format) with Chromium-based too:

Firefox Destupidification, Take #1

Arstechica website:

[guigirl]

@npro I'm so pleased you posted these links. I've now added its homepage to my BM folder of daily tech reading. Highly entertaining.

[npro]

@guigirl I'm in peace with myself, I warned you

P.S. If you want to waste tons of hours of your life reading about Linux rants he is the best by far , his rants has TONS of content. Also as I said he is an old-timer, nothing in common with tight shirts and hipsters (he hates their ignorance , also he loves MATE)