Change the "Use Native Window" option name into "Hide Title Bar"

Walton

Change the "Use Native Window" option name into "Show / Hide Title Bar".

I have to agree it is anti-intuitive to use "Use Native Window", as said in:

@edit4u said in Hide Title Bar:

Probably the most anti-intuitive setting in Vivaldi:
Settings > Appearance > Use Native Window > uncheck

The purpose of an interface is to be clear and easy to use. Just don't make others lose productivity and it's ok.

Pesala

@Walton Shouldn't it be changed to:

Show Window Title Bar

Pathduck

Problem is, a native window means that windowing controls are determined by the Window Manager, and this could vary a lot depending on OS. It could include more than just the title bar, for instance a border or other elements determined by the WM. Especially on Linux which has a lot of different WMs and people like their window styles to follow their OS theme.

So calling it anything else than a native window would not be correct.

See: https://vivaldi.com/blog/tp3-is-here/

"Added optional Native window support for better integration with Linux WMs in particular."

See: https://help.vivaldi.com/desktop/tabs/windows/#Native_windows

Hadden89

@Pathduck The option name is probably fine but I'd improve the description.
Most [windows] users are not aware of what a WM/Desktop composition is as they are usually stucked with DWM.
And probably is the same probably for [most] Mac users which are bound to their Quartz(?) compositor.
I also never understood why the native windows is an opt-in feature. Usually users prefer to have all their apps to be displayed in the same way and with a better integration with their desktops.

An idea would be, but I'm neutral on this specific case:
window control
(x) inherited by OS/DWM/DE [ native ]
( ) use Vivaldi interface (use js/css/react) [ not-native ]

But... changing name now will confuse older users and won't help new ones which still may not know what window control means.

Also, would be interesting to have a survey poll wether native or not native should be the default setting or if this is a setting which worth to be put in the welcome page (you know, a picture is better than thousand words...)

Walton

The point is: Never had a problem about "Title bar" before, just in this Vivaldi. I think not going on the common user language is going against the grain, in this case.

Firstly, what's Vivaldi target audience? I don't see any guideline here. You want Vivaldi to be focused on expert specific language? If you think it's worth to put an unknown term to the majority, then go ahead.

You don't bother to see the common user angry about not finding their settings like in other browsers? You blame them instead of making for them? It's hard to put something understandable somewhere together in the option name?

https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/7105/hide-title-bar/23?page=2

Look at the forums: More than 12.6K views about Show/Hide title bar option. They were all lost. So there must be an error somewhere!

I hope you understand.

You don't go to a doctor to learn the technical terms, you go to be treated and cured.

The least you could do is make blend both terms, like adding a parenthesis, if it is so necessary for the user.

Thank you, and have a good day!

Pathduck

@Walton But it's not a "title bar" - it's a native window. There's a big difference which would be clear if you'd read my post. Try to not think in Windows-only terms.

Walton

@Pathduck
I am the one who thinks you didn't read the post. Answer the other aspects of my post.

Even if you google "Native window" right now, you can't find what it means. It is hard to use empathy? The common user doesn't have an idea about this term. What's the point in making a general term for both users if they don't use this term. This is the first place I see "Native Window" option and I don't know why am I still there complaining about something so obvious.

There's a massive people that have to search it in the forums, you can't ignore all those people who had troubled to find a simple setting.

I bet it's easier to search "User Experience" than "Native Window". Now do your homework.

Walton

This post is deleted!

Pathduck

@Walton By default the setting "Use native window" is disabled so one can presume any user that changes it would know they've changed something, and if they don't like the so-called "title bar" (which is a Windows-only thing) they can undo their change.

So any "common user" should not need to bother with understanding what that setting does. If you don't understand something, just leave it alone.

Walton

@Pathduck Ok, you threw away more than 12K users. Nice move!
If you insist using this argument, then my answer is: go read something about User-Experience and then go back. That's my final answer. Thanks for wasting my time, direct and indirectly.

Pesala

@Walton No, Firefox does not call the Title bar the menu bar. They call the menu bar the menu bar. Vivaldi calls it the horizontal menu bar.

A Google search for Native Window soon found an explanation for Windows OS.

Using the correct terminology does matter, so Vivaldi should stick to the current naming. They could perhaps improve the description in Settings, Appearance to explain that the Window title bar will be displayed.

Walton

@Pesala Great difference. I've never known this setting as a Native Window. Nor people I know around.
It doesn't look like a doctor, a kid or a non-nerd wife would know about this new "NativeWindow Class" term. So thanks for the difficult to the simple user. At least you agree into put a description there.

Walton

The world isn't only made of programmers. So continue ignoring the fact more than 12k had trouble.

Walton

https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/7105/hide-title-bar/23?page=2

Go tell to your normal girlfriend, dad or someone else how wrong they are. I bet they all care about it and that they WILL understand the reason of the bad experience.

Walton

This post is deleted!

Walton

@Hadden89 said in Change the "Use Native Window" option name into "Hide Title Bar":

@Pathduck The option name is probably fine but I'd improve the description.
Most [windows] users are not aware of what a WM/Desktop composition is as they are usually stucked with DWM.
And probably is the same probably for [most] Mac users which are bound to their Quartz(?) compositor.
I also never understood why the native windows is an opt-in feature. Usually users prefer to have all their apps to be displayed in the same way and with a better integration with their desktops.

An idea would be, but I'm neutral on this specific case:
window control
(x) inherited by OS/DWM/DE [ native ]
( ) use Vivaldi interface (use js/css/react) [ not-native ]

But... changing name now will confuse older users and won't help new ones which still may not know what window control means.

Also, would be interesting to have a survey poll wether native or not native should be the default setting or a setting which worth to be put in the welcome page (you know, a picture is better than thousand words...)

Exactly...
To follow a User-Experience guideline. Just don't ignore the target audience. Why to have troubles into access a simple option?
And why to use a dated option as default? I really don't know!

One thing I disagree:
How a clarifying option would confuse them? It's the opposite.

Pathduck

@Walton said in Change the "Use Native Window" option name into "Hide Title Bar":

I think they won't listen to this, they are "always right".

Who are "they"? FYI no-one in this thread works for Vivaldi so this is like, just our opinions, dude.

For all we know the Vivaldi team might have noted it and might even change it to something more understandable for the "common user" (whoever that is). Some day, maybe next week, maybe next year, who knows.

All I'm saying is I don't agree that it needs to be changed, it's fine as it is and users who don't understand what a setting does should learn to leave stuff well enough alone.

Anyway, I should've long ago learned that feature requests I don't agree with should be just left alone, as no damage can be done by just ignoring it. I just thought someone would benefit from a little enlightenment ...

Walton

Just edited that in case you didn't understand.

So yeah @guigirl, you got to confuse other peoples life by using a conveniently confusing term as a "general" option for both kind of users.

The purpose of an interface is to ease users lives, not harden. If you wanna so hard to difficult a user's life so much, so I recommend you continue doing things this way.

Just don't complain if this browser won't get popular cause most users that hasn't a created account found it so weird and hard to control on and rage-quitted like on previous forums.

Are you really graduated in Languages or UI/UX?

This term is not adequate nor understandable at first, and if it was really adequate, would you prefer to make them lose productivity to teach everything as it is supposed to be?

• Is it to make you somehow special?
• So it's not a title bar?
• Are you the type of people that are making me lose time in something that could be so simple as to breath?
• Did you read something about User Experience at all? I recommend you go read something like "Don't Make Me Think" by Steve Krug.

Walton

@guigirl See? Convenience. You won't read the book!

Ignorance is a bliss.

Walton

@Pathduck Sorry if I wasn't clear, just like the interface! xD
I edited that post. so you could try to understand me.