Why is Translation implemented so poorly?

[AltCode]

@Pesala I concur with @iAN-CooG, as I've seen this before too. The source and destination languages are remembered, but translation still fails... Here's a few videos that should hopefully be more clear:

(Yes, I'm just reselecting the same text again after making the language source/destination changes, but the bug remains present when selecting other texts of that page without reloading).

[Pesala]

@AltCode said in Why is Translation implemented so poorly?:

I don't get why you feel the need to repeat this so much.

To counter the false claim that the translator never works, or almost never. When insufficient text is selected, manually selecting the source language works.

Just stop saying that it never works. It is disrespectful to the developers who spent so much time implementing and improving this feature. Sure, there is more to do, but the same goes for many other features that are less than 100% perfect.

The Panel gives a warning when autodetect fails, but the dialog does not — it just leaves the source field unchanged.

Yes, other translation features work better, but they lack privacy and/or cost money.

[barbudo2005]

Forgive me for repeating what I said in another post about the translation feature and that it can be extended to any built-in feature:

"We could say then that it all comes down to the threshold of satisfaction each one has for a specific subject.

That is to say, if for topic X:

The built-in feature has a level of 70% and your threshold satisfaction is 30%, then the built-in feature will completely fulfill its purpose with all those users with threshold below 70%.

If the built-in feature has a level of 40% and your threshold is 80%, then the built-in feature will fall short and your best option is to look for an alternative."

[HellbillyDeluxe]

@iAN-CooG said in Why is Translation implemented so poorly?:

Yeah, but how about start to fix the code to remember last language selected instead of having always to fiddle with the drop down menus and selecting first other languages, then again the correct ones, to trigger the translations?

I've made this feature request when Translate was first released, but the Vivaldi Team has never touched Translate since its first release. Which is a shame, because it could really be good and helpful. But since the Team is so small, my guess is they prioritize on releasing new features to create Media Buzz, but never/rarely fix/enhance existing ones.

[Ayespy]

@HellbillyDeluxe Vivaldi does not provide the Translate function. It is provided by Lingvanex, who specialize in translation (but also have a small crew and a huge job) Vivaldi only links to the Lingvanex function. Lingvanex is free and does not capture and sell your data so, for Vivaldi purposes, it is preferable to Google or one of the translation services that a) costs the browser developer money to deploy and/or b) captures and sells your data.

[Catweazle]

@Ayespy, Lingvanex isn't free it's a paid service, they only offer a free trial, see https://lingvanex.com, even the Cloud API, which Vivaldi, I think, use, cost money, and privacy, well...
https://lingvanex.com/privacy-policy/

[mib3berlin]

@Catweazle
Hi, to my knowledge Vivaldi use it's own Lingvanex server so I guess the Vivaldi privacy-policy is what we have as Vivaldi user.
One feature as remember the source language would fix a lot of complains about the translation feature.
No idea why they cant fix this, seems simple for a non developer.

Cheers, mib

[Catweazle]

@mib3berlin, maybe , but I don't know if the Machine Learning function of Lingvanex is include in the Vivaldi self hosted API, when there are no connection to the Linvanex servers. That maybe explain in somewhat this issues reportet by a lot of users.
Currently I'm experimenting with Reverso, an Europan translator (GDPR), which I use in the WebPanel, which is pretty complete, even offers verb conjugation and grammar check.

https://www.reverso.net/text-translation

[mib3berlin]

@Catweazle
Interesting, I will test this for a while.
Many user need full page translation and this also does not work very well with Vivaldi translate.

[Ayespy]

@Catweazle Lingvanex has a deal with Vivaldi - so it does not cost users anything as provided on the Vivaldi platform.

[HellbillyDeluxe]

@Ayespy So basic missing features like remembering the language it last translated to or setting the language it should translate to are not provided by Vivaldi, but Lingvanex as well?

Of course, I know about the cooperation with Lingvanex and the privacy features it offers. But what good is a privacy-focused tool if it doesn't work as well as Google Translate or DeepL?

Because as it is, the Translate feature in Vivaldi really isn't an alternative to other translation services, because it lacks basic features. And since it has never seen any improvements since it first got introduced, it's just one of many half-baked features Vivaldi has to offer. And this is quite frustrating, to be honest.

I really wish Vivaldi would focus on polishing existing features for the next couple releases.
While this might not create big Media buzz, it is long overdue, in my opinion.

[Pesala]

@HellbillyDeluxe said in Why is Translation implemented so poorly?:

And since it has never seen any improvements since it first got introduced

Just stop repeating the falsehoods. It does not make any difference how many times you repeat it, it is still false. Do some research by reading the linked articles.

@Pesala said in Why is Translation implemented so poorly?:

Several improvements were made since it was released. I won't waste any more time to find all of them. Vivaldi adds 68 languages to Translate.

Here is an in-depth explanation of How the Translator Works by Petter Nilsen. The Vivaldi Team are clearly working on it constantly when languages are added by Lingvanex.

At the time of the article, there was only the Translate Panel. Now there is the option to translate selected text. We all know that there are several limitations to the feature, but please acknowledge the extensive work that has been done in the last two years.

Petter: Work is already underway to implement the translation of the selected text on web pages. We have also started planning for exposing translation to other parts of the UI, such as Vivaldi Mail, in a panel, and possibly other places, too. Stay tuned!

[HellbillyDeluxe]

@Pesala Agree to disagree then. Adding new languages is not the same as improving basic functionality, such as the things I've mentioned.

[Catweazle]

I occasionally use the Vivaldi translator to translate a page. What I have noticed is that it never translates the entire page, but only the content of the screen, but the translation is generally good.
I know it has been improved since its introduction in Vivaldi, and I appreciate the work put in. I also know that a translator is a very complex program and requires a lot of dedication, difficult with the small team that Vivaldi has and for this reason it is logical that the functionality is not that offered by other translators from companies that can dedicate themselves exclusively to the development of this .
Therefore, at least for the moment, it can only be a complementary function to a third-party translator, if this function is often needed.

It is similar to the screenshot function, it works well as such, but it cannot replace a dedicated app, when you also need to edit the screenshot or share it with others. This is why, as in the case of the translator, I use also a Desktop app (ShareX), which offers me infinite more possibilities, editing, sharing, even OCR, casting, cap5ure of documents......

It is not to despise these functions that Vivaldi has, these always depend on each person's needs, whether they are useful or not.

[Pesala]

@HellbillyDeluxe There is no excuse for ignorance once you get to High School. All you have to do is read for a few minutes to gain knowledge.

Some More Improvements Since the Initial Release

• [Translations] Improve the handling of link tags and proceeding text (VB-77590)
• [Translations] Improve the handling for the automatic show translate dialog (VB-78731)
• [Translations] ‘unknown’ to the same language should not happen (VB-78814)
• [Translations] Handle and restore spaces at either end of sentences (VB-78787)
• [Translations][Settings] “Offer to translate pages that aren’t in a language you read” (VB-78810)

For those whose native language is one of those 68 added languages, adding support for their mother-tongue is most definitely an improvement. It may be of no benefit to a self-centred person, but at least one should acknowledge that improvements have been made since the introduction of the feature.

[HellbillyDeluxe]

@Pesala There really is no need to attack me personally!
You don't even know me, yet you question my education and assume I'm self-centered.

[Pesala]

@HellbillyDeluxe Your replies to this thread clearly show your ignorance and self-centredness.
@HellbillyDeluxe said in Why is Translation implemented so poorly?:

And since it has never seen any improvements since it first got introduced, it's just one of many half-baked features Vivaldi has to offer. And this is quite frustrating, to be honest.

Your frustration comes from your unrealistic expectations. The developers are not going to drop all work on bug fixing and adding other features just because you do not find the Translation tool adequate for your needs. No doubt, they will slowly work on plugging a few gaps as they have been doing for the last two years.

I find it good enough most of the time. When it fails, I use a search. If I had professional needs, I might try DeepL, but I wonder if that can translate Burmese? Edit: Apparently not, so that would not be as useful as Lingvanex for me.

[Pathduck]

@Pesala Please refrain from personal attacks, such language is not conducive to a useful conversation.

As for the usefulness (or not) of the translate feature, there's not really anything else to discuss. We know how it works, and how it fails and its limitations. There is no bug here - it's just a lack of functionality compared to other translation tools. People are free to use such alternate tools if they feel Vivaldi's translate feature is not up to par with their expectations.

All we can hope for is improvement over time. Endless discussions leading nowhere and resulting in mindless bickering serves no purpose.

Edit: Also moving to general discussion about Vivaldi as this is not a support request and has no relation to any specific OS.

[barbudo2005]

I think that this kind of discussions (and there are many of this kind in the forum) comes from the idea that when using Vivaldi one must stay "inside the box" that contains it. That is, I must use its features even if they don't fully satisfy me, and therefore when the opportunity arises complain bitterly that it hasn't reached the "expected" level. Pure masochism. If it doesn't satisfy me I don't use it and I use an alternative and that's it.

To expect Vivaldi to give us 100% excellence in each of his performances is totally ridiculous.

[Catweazle]

@barbudo2005 said in Why is Translation implemented so poorly?:

To expect Vivaldi to give us 100% excellence in each of his performances is totally ridiculous.

In comparision, it gives, at least nearby. Even if there are some functions which don't fullfit the needs of some users, compare Vivaldi with other browsers is like comparing Photoshop with Windows Paint.