Good riddance, Internet Explorer!

Catweazle

@Priest72, I've used IE in the past, when there was nothing else. But the technology is advancing in gigantic footsteps and even though MS has always been left behind with the development of the IE compared to other browsers, IE has been quickly outdated and only in recent times MS has finally been uploaded back to the car with EDGE, which is also not a marvel, but can serve as a daily browser for people who just want to check their email or participate in some social network without getting too complicated life.
Vivaldi is a magnificent browser, but there are still people who only need a letter opener and not a Swiss knife.

Zsul

@johnconnorbear said:

@mossman
In other languages each word is either male or female and you must use the according "case" with adjectives.

That's not entirely true. There are languages that have no grammatical gender at all. Not even for persons.

Zsul

@mossman: I can not install any software on my work notebook without IE. But luckily, if the IT department decided to go with this technology, then they supply me with a notebook with windows and IE and all these things preinstalled, so that I can do what I am expected to do on it and I do not have to burden my personal hardware with all these craps. Then it is their problem how they are going to maintain it.

Zsul

@johnconnorbear: There is a viable business model for browser development, and Google is just doing it. And even if there would be a fee paying business model, I am not sure if it would help a lot. MS Windows is a paying software and it was so from the beginning, still it does not stop Microsoft from striving to monopoly and invading customers privacy. Just it is in a weaker position now then let's say 15 to 25 years ago.

Yes, Google in principle can stop any third party to access Chromium or Android source, but at the moment they are not doing it, and probably it is for a reason. Because that's how they can maintain their position. As soon as they restrict access to their code, much stronger need would arise for alternatives that likely would result in a new competitor. Community can develop and maintain operating systems and large software collections, so I am pretty sure community can develop and maintain a browser engine as well. The reason why nobody is doing this at the moment is because Google is maintaining one which is accessible to everyone and good enough, so there is not enough interest to compete with it. By the way, community not only means lonely revolutionary programmers who want to save the world from Google, but also other companies, organizations or states having interfering interests with Google's restrictions. And it turns out that actually it is not Google who wants to restrict access to Android for third parties, but the US government for political reasons. I think it is a very interesting experiment now to see what will happen with Huawei after the US restrictions. Not because Chinese are the champions of openness, but because it will show us in practice what will happen if a third party is restricted from access to Google's stuff.

By the way I agree with you that the situation is very worrying. Especially worrying in the case of the smartphone market where the image of openness is clearly fictitious. Consumers are not buying devices running AOSP code, but Google's and manufacturer's proprietary code, the access is completely restricted to the system, and there is a very well recorded invasion of privacy. Still, there is not enough demand for an alternative system to thrive. People are just happy with it no matter how bad it is.

For browsers at the moment it is good enough to take Google's open code and use it. Maybe remove or modify parts where Google is doing something evil. What will happen if this is not going to be possible or feasible anymore is a pure speculation. But yes, probably the longer we 'enjoy' the convenience of having the Google's code for free, the harder it will be to do something else later as expertise becomes outdated and fades out with time.

Catweazle

@JohnConnorBear , I am well aware of Google's position in the market and the desire to see the user as a commodity, as well as the technical ability to eliminate competitors
But I don't think it will, since this would be suicide for Google. Not because of the users, but because of the interdependencies in a technology industry that Google also depends on. Starting with that without certain third-party companies, Google couldn't even keep their servers running, or keep the other technologies.Without going any further, China and other Asian countries are perfectly capable of crushing Google, if Google cuts access to Chromium or other products that they depend on.
Although the Chinese use Google technologies, they do have the ability to develop alternatives.
Besides, why does Google need to eliminate competitors? already has a monopoly position, a you say.
At the user level, the only possibility is to move to decentralized networks, where it can even create own rules and where Google has no influence of any kind. But for this we must first get into the almost impossible task of convincing the vast majority of users, while decentralized networks are only a testimonial phenomenon of a minority.

Catweazle

@JohnConnorBear , as you say yourself, if there is no competitor, Google does not need to remove them from the middle, although it can. It is irrelevant whether they are competitors or not.
For this reason I do not think that Google is going to do it, because this can only have negative consequences for themselves.
Big companies don't work the way you describe it, even if they have a monopoly. Even monopolies are dependent on other monopolies today that are needed to be able to survive in a globalized world.
Google can develop its own software and corresponding infrastructure, but in order to do so, it needs components and supplies from others to do so.

mossman

@Zsul said in Good riddance, Internet Explorer!:

@mossman: I can not install any software on my work notebook without IE.

Funny enough I just came back to this topic since I was reminded of it while fighting with Sharepoint... the modern cloud according to Microsoft (a very very badly designed mish-mash of different UIs where you have almost no oversight of what you have access to, a badly designed mish-mash of different means of access, and the need to be "in the know" to be able to find or set anything properly).

This flagship for the future actually requires OLD Internet Explorer and Windows (because of ActiveX) just to flip a toggle so your online files can be read by OneDrive. It's pathetic... And just like last time, I spent ten minutes trying to remember how to do it before realising: only in IE.

Zsul

@johnconnorbear: It seems you are arguing with your own concept of what I might think rather that what I wrote.

You are plainly WRONG. Google don't need to stop "access", all they have to do is to say "here is the code if you want to use it, we quit" and then shut off the light.

No, what you are talking about is google continue to develop their own code closed source, that is they restrict the access to it for third parties, and that's what I responded to. Of course they can not really restrict access to what they already released under an open source licence and probably there are a lot of copies everywhere in the world.

Community cannot do almost anything without financial backing of big companies that pay for developers and sysadmins. Linux ecosystem exists because big corporations pump lots of resources into it.

Yes big corporations and also government backed organizations put a lot of resource in linux development, but there is no one single entity with a full control over the whole linux ecosystem. That is what I call community development, and that is what probably would be a healthy model for browser engine development as well, but it is not the case unfortunately.

What worries me is people don't have the perception that a problem exist.

I fully agree with you. And that's much larger problem than whether the community can maintain browser engine or not. Since if they are not seeing the problem, then of course nobody will come up with a solution ever.

Probably the only thing we don't agree on is Microsoft and their OS. Just because they are weaker now, and they didn't invented the large scale user data collection, it doesn't mean they're any better. By the way, they still tried to condition people's behavior without large scale data collection by for example pretending that compatibility issues caused intentionally by themselves are the faults of their competitors convincing people that they have the only usable system. It was so successful, that many people still think it is the case even nowadays, when windows ecosystem is barely usable anymore even in itself, not talking about compatibility issues with others.

Catweazle

@JohnConnorBear , although MS can't compete with Google directly, why it's business model is different and also a monopol, if Google decides to kill Chromium, Edge also stops working. Do you think Google risks going to war with MS? I don't, because Google also depends on MS.
You are very pessimistic and you have your reason for being so, the Internet increasingly becomes private property of large companies, where the user is the breakfast of them, this is my concern, not that Google eliminates Chromium.

Catweazle

@JohnConnorBear , of course MS is able to continue with Chromium, with this it will not change anything for the other browsers based on it, although it comes from another monopoly, but precisely for this reason Google will take great care to leave the domain over Chromium, since it substantially loses control of the market by MS.
This is what I mean that any company, even if they are monopolies, have dependencies on others and that is why I do not think it will change anything you augur with regard to Chromium. The under-the-bottom problem is another and this is also clarified in the interview on the Vivaldi Blog with Jon on the ethics of big companies.
Ultimately, having a monopoly also has two sides to respect in a globalized world with many who can quickly take on the role.
The last instance is always the client everyone depends on.
The EC certainly has the technical capacity (Asian countries anyway) to take the reins if necessary, the only lack is political will and this in turn again falls to the user to be aware of this problem.

Chas4

Opera and Webkit were in the same building different floors with a adult store below.
There was also Microsoft's Outlook web access sending Opera the basic stripped down site because it was not IE (if you masked as IE you could get it to work full version).

Priest72

I don't think IE will ever truly disappear because of the usage numbers with xp and windows 7 onwards.people will be still using xp for example for many years to come.
Windows up to version 11 will last in theory for another decade.
Look at xp which is over 20 years old and still going strong.

Long life left in the old browser yet especially among the stubborn windows users.

jon

@Priest72 , in reality, Edge is also just Internet Explorer with a new name. Yes, there is significant changes in the underlying code, but the real reason for the name change is because the old browser was just so unpopular. Sadly they have not changed their ways, so they are still trying to force people to use their browser.

senja

After all those regulations, how is even possible that they allowed Google to do much worse with Chrome?
I can't complain if they (MS) bundle their browser with their own OS. And after all dirty play they done, things newer been bad like today with Chrome. Even now, Vivaldi uses Chrome's UA to be compatible with some sites...

After all, MS didn't kill Opera (Presto). Google did it.

treego

Opera Presto was my favorite browser of all-time DESPITE Microsoft's dirty tactics!

Vivaldi is my 2nd favorite browser of all-time ... getting close to the brilliance of Opera Presto!

Panino

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DoctorG

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senja

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treego

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Ayespy

I deleted the foregoing off-topic posts rather than fork the topic, as the posts are political in nature and certain to give offense to someone ("Don’t use content likely to offend people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or political views.") Hence, they are not in keeping with Vivaldi community rules. Sorry, everyone.