Gendering in forum
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@Gwen-Dragon said in another series of Vivaldi in Qt C++ , will be wonderful:
Gwen is not a male name.
«Gwen-Dragon» is only a pseudonym. It does say in itself which gender you are. Your signature does.
By the way, assuming everyone knows «Gwen is not a male name» supposes everyone familiar with Western/European culture. It's also a prejudice and Western-centric.Do no expect that every person is male because of technical knowledge!
You're right, but unfortunately do not expect state of mind to change soon. In this thread, read the first post (the first line), you will love it…
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@Gwen-Dragon Don't get me wrong.
Earlier, in another thread, the user already made the same mistake (he called you «sir»), he was told you are a woman, then made the same mistake again. He should have paid attention (it's not such a great effort). But you can't assume, on an international forum, everyone knows «Gwen» is a female name. That's why you specify you're a woman in your signature.
To be clear, nobody has to assume users here are only men, just because it's a technical forum. -
@JohnConnorBear It doesn't make any difference for someone from, say, Japan, Indonesia or Viet Nam.
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@JohnConnorBear said in Gendering in forum:
There are few exceptions like "LucA", "AndreA" or "SimonE" that are all male names, I think of greek origin.
And then just to confuse everything even more, Andrea and Simone are female names in some languages. In Swedish, for example, those names are female and the male equivalents would be Andreas and Simon. Similarly, Robin, commonly a female name in English, is (almost) purely a male name in Swedish.
So yeah, gender should never be assumed from a name.
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@JohnConnorBear said in Gendering in forum:
In Italian it is "aeroplanO" and since it ends on "O" it is "male".
I was taught to say «la mano», not «il mano»… (I'm kidding. I know «mano» isn't a relevant example at all)
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@JohnConnorBear Gwen is a dragon, who sometimes breathes fire. She is also performing magic on a daily basis to solve problems and hunt down bugs.
I like magic because it shows that what we see is not as real as we believe it to be. The mind plays tricks on unmindful people who get emotional about things that are impermanent, and not at all what they seem to be.
The Buddha only approves of one kind of magic.
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In a forum and another social network I care about people as such, if it is a man or a woman I care as much as the news of the fall of a sack of rice in China.
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@Gwen-Dragon i already said sorry i wasn't know that you are a female , only today i know this , even last time from 10 days or more when you asked me to not say Sir , i though you are a man and like peoples to call you with Dragon and not with Sir .
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@Catweazle Of course and fortunately, we don't care about people's gender and other things. You're welcome wether you're a woman, a man, a kangaroo or an extraterrestrial form of life.
However, it doesn't mean that, on a so-called technical forum, you can assume users are men.
That's not a reason to not pay attention to a user's gender when this user specifies it in a signature. -
@hlehyaric said in Gendering in forum:
That's not a reason to not pay attention to a user's gender when this user specifies it in a signature.
Just refer to everyone as "my friend" (and treat them accordingly).
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@kimoo said in Gendering in forum:
forgive me i was not know that you are lady
You did not know, so you insulted her & by extension all we other women here too, by once again arrogantly assuming that only men like tech. Such prejudice, wilful or clueless, is infuriating. It is 2020, not 1820 or 1920.
It is really really really simple & easy to get this right.
- Never assume that you know someone else's gender online unless they tell you.
- Until you know, never address them with gendered singular pronouns, it is deeply offensive when you get it wrong!
- Commonplace courteous manners to manage this, until you know [not assume] their gender, is to use
they, their, them
instead ofhe, his, him
, & NEVER arrogantly sayMister
orMr
unless/until you know that is applicable.
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You can never be sure of anything on the network
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@JohnConnorBear said in Gendering in forum:
Second, we aren't aware of what you consider "polite" in your corner of the world.
Then consider this part of your education. Nobody who now or later reads this thread can have any excuse whatsoever to ever claim ignorance again.
Patience, you must have.
Respect & learning everyone must have.
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@Steffie We must be cautious and we mustn't be western-centric either. It's a global forum, with users from all around the world. Forum's main language is English. You're a native English speaker, I'm not, but we both have a western culture background. We are privileged here, it's easier for us to manage some issues, (even in English for me), than for people from a different background, a different culture, a different language. So respect, learning, obviously. Patience, too.
As a side note, the user, whose blunder caused all this commotion, made the same mistake twice. Once, it's forgivable. Twice, it's irritating. Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum.
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@hlehyaric , after perfection, only decay can exist.
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@Catweazle Of course, but, as far as I remember, I was not talking about perfection. I never wrote I was perfect or that anybody else was or wasn't.
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@hlehyaric I don't disagree per se, but i do feel that qualification & context should be added here.
@Gwen-Dragon = JOINED 1 FEB 2015, 02:08
@Steffie = JOINED 6 FEB 2015, 21:20
@hlehyaric = JOINED 17 MAY 2016, 02:38- You've been here sufficiently long that you must have seen, as certainly have Lilo & I, numerous disrespectful arrogant posts wherein the statistically-preponderant male writer blithely assumed that everyone else on the forum was also male, & so wrote accordingly.
- Some [certainly not all, & i would like to believe a diminishing number of] other male forum members saw no problem at all in that, & seemed sometimes amused, sometimes hostile, with the very idea that women might be displeased at being overlooked & disrespected in such a way.
- Some [certainly not all, & i would like to believe a diminishing number of] men fail to grasp that this issue can be highly emotive for women in context of millennia of male oppression & diminution.
- No male writer should henceforth [nor indeed historically] be even slightly surprised if they encounter push-back from some of us uppity women, if we are made to feel less than equal [irrespective of by intent or ignorance].
- A really frequent refrain in numerous tech fora [Vivaldi is not immune], when some of we aforesaid uppity women do push-back, is for some males to respond with irritation or anger that we are trying to make the forum into "another gender-wars platform" [ugh] & how dare we! In fact we seek balance & equal respect, nothing more... or less.
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@Steffie You're right. I don't disagree with you or Gwen-Dragon either.
The only thing I disagree with is that sentence «Gwen is not a male name» as if it was obvious Gwen is a female name. It is for you and me and her. It cannot be for someone with a different culture and a different language. That's why I talked about not being western-centric.
The user we talk about, the only thing I'm sure, is not an English speaking person (my English is better, that says it all). For the rest, I know nothing. So let's be generous, one mistake is forgivable. The user was told about the mistake. So, once again the same mistake, though Gwen-Dragon says she's a woman in her signature. I'm sure she feels obliged to indicate her gender, cause she knows otherwise many (male) users would assume she's a man.(BTW, as far as I remember, no male user I know here says he's a man in his signature; just saying…) I understand that things that seem benign for male users are very irritating for you and her and all other women. The fact is they are, but some men just don't want to understand. Hence the gender-wars refrain.
In one of my post, I pointed out Gwen-Dragon to another thread where the OP started this way «Hi, lads», as if, obviously, there are only lads on this forum. It's just unbelievable. I'm pretty sure the OP won't understand Gwen-Dragon reply. So, yes, there is an issue, quite surely magnified on tech fora. -
@hlehyaric Oh i assuredly agree with you -- & without in any way wishing to sound condescending or sarcastic, i delight in every encounter i have with an actual evolved male, so your imbued wisdom brings me joy.
Whilst i strongly, emphatically, unreservedly comprehend Lilo's frustration, & truly commend her strength in rebutting, pls note that at no point in any of my postings herein did i endorse any assumption that it is easy or even possible for cross-cultural first-name gender-recognition to be judicious &/or efficacious. Au contraire, i fervently believe that all assumptions need to be jettisoned, & instead respectful gender-neutral writing [& speaking] should occur, until & unless the person being addressed chooses to disclose their own gender-identity. Some do, some don't, hence IMO all assumptions should be dropped & neutrality maintained for as long as necessary [which might be forever, depending on individual sensibilities].