Access to Internet, and not just the Web
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1. Browser should be a browser. Mail client should be a mail client. IRC client … etc.
2. There is no reasonable needs to buildin one in another (I mean in one .exe file) and making a multi-protocol wash machine, messing up in code, increasing size, memory usage, pooring speed and extenting limitations, and increasing exploiting possibility, and waiting for build update because part of program (eg. mail / irc part) is not ready at time, and, and, and...I basically agree. I really don't understand why you want to put everything into one "suite". …
They don't want to put everything into one suite. But there are some things that they do want to put in. Mail is just one of them. A key thing so many users forget in their rush to embrace "simplicity" is that a browser feature which seems "bloat" to them is "essential" to another user. That 0.1% number you quoted is significantly larger than that, out in the "community" regarding mail; but the key point is that the community is made up of users each wanting certain important (to them) features, and who together may constitute only a few percent of the total users - but that same thing is true across a great many different features. Hence the community is made up of a collection of users each wanting many different things in a browser, but collectively seeking a browser which can deliver the most to all of them as users. The whole is made up of the sum of the parts, though each part may individually be small.
There are a myriad of other browsers out there presenting themselves to be simple and single-focused… but there are almost none any more (apart from old Opera) that are truly feature-rich and highly configurable - elements which some users desperately need. And there's little point in making a browser configurable if it lacks features to configure. As I understand Jon & company's vision, this is what they want to deliver in Vivaldi - a rich-featured, configurable browser "for their friends". So arguing against that is arguing against the very DNA of this browser and its developers... hence, it's pointless. Neither I nor other folks here are telling you to go use some other browser, but if you can't bear the kind of browser Vivaldi's vision is heading toward, then you'd probably indeed be happier elsewhere.
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@RRR13:
I basically agree. I really don't understand why you want to put everything into one "suite".
This is what old Opera did. Tried to satisfy everybodyYou want to understand why Vivaldi is following the plan that it was created to follow? :lol:
Exactly. "Vivaldi should not be Vivaldi. It should be something else." Such a person (say, being Jewish) would join a Christian congregation and then complain that both old and new testaments are included in the sermon, when only the old testament applies to human life. You're in the wrong pew, buddy.
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I continue to see posts promoting the idea that it was a "mistake" for old opera to have email. The very fact that no browser integrates email is a prime REASON Jon is building Vivaldi. You may think he is wrong, but I continue to be baffled why anyone would use a product from someone whom they believe should not be building that product, but rather, a different one.
Well, I am one of those guys. This means that I will not use any email client embedded in a browser - unless it is better than any the specialized mail clients out there (very unlikely). I also assume I can disable the mail function if I don't want it (as I could in Opera).
Of course, I would use the browser - if I think the functionality and implementation is better than my current default browser (Opera).
But my major concern (also based on the "old" Opera experience) is the time and resources it takes to develop, debug and maintain these "extra" functions. This killed "old" Opera. I hope it won't kill Vivaldi.
Jon knows the history. I am sure he also knows when to say "No". -
I continue to see posts promoting the idea that it was a "mistake" for old opera to have email. The very fact that no browser integrates email is a prime REASON Jon is building Vivaldi. You may think he is wrong, but I continue to be baffled why anyone would use a product from someone whom they believe should not be building that product, but rather, a different one.
Well, I am one of those guys. This means that I will not use any email client embedded in a browser - unless it is better than any the specialized mail clients out there (very unlikely). …
Curiously, I'm also one who never used the mail feature in old Opera because I personally prefer my stand-alone client - but I strongly support those who want to see it integrated into the Vivaldi browser. That's in large part, because I recognize how much it aids their workflow for certain users when well-integrated and not just a limited-integration, bolt-on appendage like a mail extension. I recognize that whatever helps other users materially in adopting and using this browser will help me in the long run, whether or not I ever use the same features. That's because it's that mass of users together, each running Vivaldi for his own reasons, in his own way, and with his own mix of built-in features, who will make it a financial success for those developing it. And if that happens, we'll all be here in years to come celebrating what a great ride it's been.
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I continue to see posts promoting the idea that it was a "mistake" for old opera to have email. The very fact that no browser integrates email is a prime REASON Jon is building Vivaldi. You may think he is wrong, but I continue to be baffled why anyone would use a product from someone whom they believe should not be building that product, but rather, a different one.
Well, I am one of those guys. This means that I will not use any email client embedded in a browser - unless it is better than any the specialized mail clients out there (very unlikely). I also assume I can disable the mail function if I don't want it (as I could in Opera).
Of course, I would use the browser - if I think the functionality and implementation is better than my current default browser (Opera).
But my major concern (also based on the "old" Opera experience) is the time and resources it takes to develop, debug and maintain these "extra" functions. This killed "old" Opera. I hope it won't kill Vivaldi.
Jon knows the history. I am sure he also knows when to say "No".As an insider, Jon understands, better than any of us, what did and did not spell the end of Presto (hint - it was not too many features, including email - if it were, he would not have promised it here, before the project even got off the ground.) You may rest assured he knows what to work on, and what to leave for later (or never).
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You still do not understand how old Opera worked […]
O rly? I understand. Im coder with 25yrs experience…
[…] or why it was a good idea.
…and I say it was bad idea. Thats all.
fifteen people developing two programs, compared to fifteen people developing one integrated program
OR, 12 developers working on ui/ext/browser/installer/whatever part, 3 on mail client part (where one understand POP3/SMTP/IMAP/SSL and rest don't). Then Vivaldi (and community) will wait for mail-part for Vivaldi before build release.
[yup, im unfair now but that worst scenario may happen in real world]With a multi-process structure like Blink uses, it seems to me another process would be no more burdensome than another tab.
Sounds like commercial break…
On the other hand: Tell me name of program with multi-function (I mean: fire+water) that are useful / success etc. ?I understand You (but I disagree), so please You understand me - I do not reject Vivaldi cause builldin mail client ;d Just simply: I say its a bad idea.
...and good morning.
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And it's perfectly true the suites did not pass the market exam.
We may say Jon S von Techker vision of a single application for both web+email is his personal view. -
O rly? I understand. Im coder with 25yrs experience…
I think he means that you have not used the mail client in the old Opera, and therefore you do not understand how useful it was to have mail integrated into the browser.
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Then you and Jon will simply have to disagree on this, as it is one of the founding ideas of Vivaldi - not a run down a side street.
I suspect, btw, that there are 1,2, or 3 mail developers who occasionally check in with the browser developers to ensure their part of the project will dovetail with the rest.
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I just don't understand; why do people see this thing happening where a bunch of like-minded people are gathering around a common vision and feel the need to gate crash and constantly rain on the parade? It's some new perverse form of trolling!
I think I'm right in saying that most people here see what Vivaldi is aiming for and like the direction it's going, so can everyone who seems to have the POLAR OPPOSITE VIEW please just shut up!? You're not winning any popularity contests or scoring any points and frankly it's already annoying as heck…
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I just don't understand; why do people see this thing happening where a bunch of like-minded people are gathering around a common vision and feel the need to gate crash and constantly rain on the parade? It's some new perverse form of trolling!
I think I'm right in saying that most people here see what Vivaldi is aiming for and like the direction it's going, so can everyone who seems to have the POLAR OPPOSITE VIEW please just shut up!? You're not winning any popularity contests or scoring any points and frankly it's already annoying as heck…
+1 To what you said. I also don't understand what THESE people want and what are they doing here in the first place?! I think we can all agree that there are enough naked browsers on the market. What would be the purpose of creating another one?
You guys don't need a suite? Just use ChrOpera or any other browser.
Nobody forced using all the features of the old Opera. Some users didn't even know that there was integrated mail client, IRC client, torrent client and so on. But those who knew and used them like me are using them till this day. -
True.
I hope that vivaldi will NOT just copy opera 12, but will try stg NEW ( THAT MEANS UNSEEN).Unfortunately it will be a very long run: at the moment they need to implement what the community asked: synchronisation, themes (OMG!), RSS,…
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1. Browser should be a browser. Mail client should be a mail client. IRC client … etc.
If you want just an Hamburger and some potatoes is better to look for a fast food.
Going in an Italian/French/whatever high level restaurant, and asking for a Big Mac is pointless (to say the best).
Here is exactly the same. No one will force you to to use Vivaldi if you are used to low end browsers.
Just use one of them. Pretty simple.
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I think he means that you have not used the mail client in the old Opera, and therefore you do not understand how useful it was to have mail integrated into the browser.
Tried, and not used, I prefer TheBat.
(and still: I understand but disagree).so can everyone who seems to have the POLAR OPPOSITE VIEW please just shut up!?
Oh please, You want to say that I have to shut up because I have a different opinion than you? Where are you from? Federation of Censorship?
So maybe you just do not read threads that you think is a troll-topics. OK? -
And it's perfectly true the suites did not pass the market exam.
We may say Jon S von Techker vision of a single application for both web+email is his personal view.It's my understanding that the company slogan is:
"Vivaldi - A new browser for our friends"
Not:
"Vivladi - A new browser for the mass market" -
From helsten2 above:
"This is what old Opera did. Tried to satisfy everybody, adding more and more functions, used by very few people (but very active in the forum). In the end you spend 90% of your time and resources to develop and debug functions which are used by 0.1% of the community."
This was actually the genius of classic Opera, not its downfall. In a saturated market, they carved out a niche comprising hundreds of smaller niches. That was what kept them in the game long after they should have been elbowed out of the market by the "big boys." The loss of the "try to be all things to all people" dynamic is why their numbers dropped off a cliff when they switched to the new Opera 15+ strategy.
Vivaldi will never, and is not intended to ever, compete on the same playing field as the "big boys." It is "a browser for our friends." But, by pulling together a coalition of all the people whose quirky needs are not met in the larger browser market it can, like Maxthon, for instance, be profitable in its own little corner of the internet, where the people who stick with it and promote it to their friends are the hard-core devotees of features or feature-sets found nowhere else (a different need for each user, yet, by each need attracting .01% of the market, a total mass of some 1% to 2% can be accumulated, thus ensuring a loyal fan base that will keep it alive indefinitely).
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@RRR13:
It's my understanding that the company slogan is:
"Vivaldi - A new browser for our friends"
Not:
"Vivladi - A new browser for the mass market"Where the hell are my Opera-like tab stacks?! What? Am I not a friend?! :lol:
A friend in need is a friend indeed…
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I agree with the OP, especially with adding a TOR integration option as well!
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@RRR13:
The loss of the "try to be all things to all people" dynamic is why their numbers dropped off a cliff when they switched to the new Opera 15+ strategy.
I don't know about that… Dunno how accurate StatCounter is, but I guess it has some credibility. And StatCounter says Opera is doing just as badly as it always has.
Yes, but according to the more detailed statistics of netmarketshare, Opera Blink has 0.56% market share, Opera 12 still has 0.37% market share. This means that the "New Opera" only held on to about two-thirds of its previous market share.
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I was a fan of Opera 12 untill my old pc crashed,I was off line for about a year or so.I got a new laptop & downloaded Opera,only to discover the it change BIG TIME.I started searching for a browser like Opera 12 untill I found Vivaldi.THAT'S when I KNEW I found the browser I wanted.& for the record,I LIKE the direction Jon is taking with Vivaldi.