Why don´t you post a tutorial about tab stacking and the brand new tiling for the newbies & classic



  • what do stacking and tiling mean? where do we can use them?, how do that?, example of sites where we can do them, like and dislike, PC netbook, memory usage..... what does "In this build, we changed the way Tiling works based on the feedback. Now, you can right-click on a tab stack and select Tile Tab Stack." mean?


  • Moderator

    None of these features are finished. Thus, any tutorial would have to be re-written for every release.

    Then, too, we are TESTING this browser. One of the key traits of any feature is DISCOVERABILITY. By watching the feedback here and elsewhere, developers have a chance to gauge how intuitive and how discoverable any feature is. This is much more valuable than learning at this stage whether users can read a manual. Most users are never going to read any tutorial, manual, FAQ or anything else for a browser. They are just going to fiddle with the browser, read menus, and see what they can figure out. So, especially at this stage, feedback from users poking around without guidance is what is most needed.



  • I´m disagre with you. I think that we need to know something before testing it, if I give you to test a pH-meter, you will ask me first, what is it? is it a bomb? is it danger? I´m not a chimp playing with a new toy, I´m a pensant man using a browser. so you shouldnt say: try it, test it without think, try it and we´ll tell you about it in the future.


  • Moderator

    You are not using a browser. You are volunteering to be a test subject on an early framework for a browser. Please disabuse yourself of any idea that you are using a browser. You'll be a good deal happier.

    If you and some other volunteers wish to cobble together a tutorial or manual regarding your discoveries while testing, then by all means please knock yourselves out. There are many users who are volunteering in a similar fashion already.



  • I again disagree with you. this is a browser, which we are trying to improve our suggestions and giving warning of mistakes but we are not stupid. you try to keep secrets in a closed group leaving out the rest of the people. For you there are two groups: those who know and hide the information and other people who are beta tester. I'm a beta tester but I have every right to ask, so as you have every right to hide all possible information to other people. but please let someone else if you answer the questions in this forum. forum that you try to hide as much as possible response to other people it integrates.
    I have the rigth to ask here in this forum all I want, like you have the rigth to hide everything all too in this forum.



  • @Ayespy:

    Most users are never going to read any tutorial, manual, FAQ or anything else for a browser. They are just going to fiddle with the browser, read menus, and see what they can figure out. So, especially at this stage, feedback from users poking around without guidance is what is most needed.

    Absolutely. At first, I couldn't figure out how to change the tiling from vertical to horizontal. The selected tabs context menu had changed, and was simpler, but there was no horizontal/vertical choice.

    After I read this forum post I learnt how to do it. Would I have figured it out on my own? Probably, I knew that it should be possible but it wasn't immediately obvious, so maybe the sttatus bar button is not such a great idea.

    When there is no selection, tab-stack, or tiled group, the button is greyed out and hard to spot. Since it does nothing, there is no indication what it's for.

    This is why we do not need a tutorial on tab-stacking yet. Lots of different users with a wide range of abilities playing with it is the best way to detect weaknesses in the UI design.


  • Vivaldi Translator

    In this fight I have to say that I'm with Ayespy (again) - (god damn, If you were a woman and I would love you already! :D )

    anyway, I'll try to say something different:

    1. it's good that there are no tutorials since if it's easy to find, we can say it (it's called feedback) and they might change the behaviour (as they already did with a tons of features and it's still only like 2 months from 1st TP)

    2. in general, it's nonsense to have tutorials for something what is under development and may change really soon

    3. anyway, tell me who reads FAQs… I usually don't. Features are supposed to be sophisticated and native for use. If not, some text about it should pop-up in the browser (that's for the future. Do pop-ups and/or tooltips about how to use something, not FAQs/manuals!)



  • Probably the problem is not really a question of testing paradigm but a much more simple one. The OP may not even know what tab stacking is at all. If he knew that he should try to drag and drop a few tabs on another one (thus build a stack of tabs) he could do the further fiddling and poking on his own.

    Just a humble proposal. :)


  • Moderator

    @jazei:

    I again disagree with you. this is a browser, which we are trying to improve our suggestions and giving warning of mistakes but we are not stupid. you try to keep secrets in a closed group leaving out the rest of the people. For you there are two groups: those who know and hide the information and other people who are beta tester. I'm a beta tester but I have every right to ask, so as you have every right to hide all possible information to other people. but please let someone else if you answer the questions in this forum. forum that you try to hide as much as possible response to other people it integrates.
    I have the rigth to ask here in this forum all I want, like you have the rigth to hide everything all too in this forum.

    I am probably the LAST person you should accuse of "hiding" data. A user like yourself, and not a web developer or coder (just a good investigator), I believe I have answered more questions and cleared up more mysteries for more people, than possibly anyone here. Vivaldi does not refer to this project, at this stage, as anything other than a Preview. "What you get now is our first Technical preview. It is a build intended to show the direction of our product. It is not perfect, far from it. Some of the key features we integrate are yet to be implemented, optimization needs to be done. But we hope that you get a glimpse of our product and what you can expect from us."

    Perhaps you could take their admonition to heart, give meaningful feedback if you wish, and tone down the complaining. The public testing and refining stage of this project is two whole stinking months old. It will be ready for the FIRST full public release hopefully by Christmas. That would be a good time for them to start to formulate a set of pages for tips, tricks and tutorials. Until that time, one could always do what the users of every other browser on the planet do, and get your tips, tricks and tutorials from the user forums.


  • Moderator

    @RRR13:

    @ahoj1234:

    Do pop-ups and/or tooltips about how to use something, not FAQs/manuals!

    Yes, please!

    Exactly. Discoverability is the KEY to user-friendliness. And by testing, the team will be able to learn how to make all features and controls intuitive and easily discoverable. In that way people will slip into the browser like a pair of comfortable old jeans, and feel like they've always known how to use it.


  • Moderator

    @jazei:

    I´m disagre with you. I think that we need to know something before testing it, if I give you to test a pH-meter, you will ask me first, what is it? is it a bomb? is it danger? I´m not a chimp playing with a new toy, I´m a pensant man using a browser.

    Your example is really poor. Let's start with the assumption that I do not know what a pH-meter is and does. If you'd give it to me I'd surely ask what the hell it is. But you know what Vivaldi is, you wrote it in your own comment, it's a browser. It would only be analogous to your example if Vivaldi came up and said: "Here's an executable, run it"

    @jazei:

    so you shouldnt say: try it, test it without think, try it and we´ll tell you about it in the future.

    If using your brain to find out what features your software has is not thinking than I've been not thinking for years.

    I'm not saying they could or should not do this, but if they just showed exactly how it must be done and when then that's not thinking. It's like training chimps to do something.



  • @jazei:

    what do stacking and tiling mean? where do we can use them?

    I agree with Jazei. To release brain-teasers doesn't give valuable information to the Vivaldi team. It's more like a test, if I'm a nerd or a common user, how is my English, or how many hours I'm ready to use to resolve the teaser. An update should not be an IQ test.



  • @ayespy, you do realise if you'd just answered the OPs concern with a couple of sentences or a link to where the feature is explained a bit better (as Pesala did), then this whole thread would have petered out and the OP would be happy, don't you?

    We're are all in this testing thing together, it's not a competition. And if was obvious then the OP wouldn't have mentioned it.


  • Moderator

    @Flaxthejute:

    @ayespy, you do realise if you'd just answered the OPs concern with a couple of sentences or a link to where the feature is explained a bit better (as Pesala did), then this whole thread would have petered out and the OP would be happy, don't you?

    We're are all in this testing thing together, it's not a competition. And if was obvious then the OP wouldn't have mentioned it.

    You may have a point. It actually had not even occurred to me that anyone did not understand what tab stacking was - and given the title of the post, I genuinely believed he was advising the developers to write a tutorial, not simply asking "what's this tab-stacking thing people keep talking about?" Which, had he simply asked that, any number of people would have immediately tried to explain.

    OP has shown an unfortunate tendency since beginning to comment here, however, to carp and criticize, and treat bugs, regressions and incomplete work as intentional breakage, personal insults or evidences of general incompetence on the part of the development team - and to make the sorts of comments that would be more appropriate to a polished product which is badly designed, rather than an incomplete product which developer are still trying to get right.

    It's possible I mistook his simple confusion in this case as another instance of insistence that developers should change course and start doing things his way. I think it's also possible I was not mistaken.



  • @tardigrada:

    Probably the problem is not really a question of testing paradigm but a much more simple one. The OP may not even know what tab stacking is at all. If he knew that he should try to drag and drop a few tabs on another one (thus build a stack of tabs) he could do the further fiddling and poking on his own.

    Just a humble proposal. :)

    @Flaxthejute:

    @ayespy, you do realise if you'd just answered the OPs concern with a couple of sentences or a link to where the feature is explained a bit better (as Pesala did), then this whole thread would have petered out and the OP would be happy, don't you?

    We're are all in this testing thing together, it's not a competition. And if was obvious then the OP wouldn't have mentioned it.

    @Flaxthejute
    Thank you.



  • the conclusion I draw from this post is that you have brought me the desire to continue participating in this forum, I was brutally attacked by you. and on top of that I see who denied me the help he spends helping elsewhere.
    I no longer participate more in this forum due to ostiles answers I had.
    an user that denied to help in this issue write in another site the explanation that denied to write here, but he is only 1 of them not the only 1 guilty man see below the explanation that he did in another place:

    and I would like that moderators write here in defense of my but not they choiced to be in silence.


  • Moderator

    @jazei:

    the conclusion I draw from this post is that you have brought me the desire to continue participating in this forum, I was brutally attacked by you. and on top of that I see who denied me the help he spends helping elsewhere.
    I no longer participate more in this forum due to ostiles answers I had.
    an user that denied to help in this issue write in another site the explanation that denied to write here, but he is only 1 of them not the only 1 guilty man see below the explanation that he did in another place:

    and I would like that moderators write here in defense of my but not they choiced to be in silence.

    If you read my comments above, you will see that I honestly did not understand that you were asking what tab stacks and tiling were. I thought you were asking the developers to write a tutorial for people in general. That was the headline of your topic. As you seem to understand other aspects of the browser well, I actually assumed you understood tab stacking (which is still very much a work in progress, and changing week to week). It was not my intent to "brutally attack" you, but to explain why I thought it a poor use of developer time to write tutorials on a product which is very unfinished, and very much in flux.

    Your response to this was not to clarify to me "No, no. I just want to know what tab stacking and tiling are about. Can you explain it?" but rather to explain why my position (that it's too early for tutorials by the company) is wrong, and eventually to accuse me of denying you information which, of course, had never been my intent. I understand English is not your first language, and that because of this your syntax sometimes makes you VERY difficult to understand. I do not fault you for that in and of itself. In fact, I admire that you seem to have some command of at least two alphabets, and more than one language. But the solution to being misunderstood is not to become combative and self-justifying, but rather to try to explain and clarify.

    ANY TIME I can see that a user, including yourself, is having trouble with a feature because they don't get how to use it, if I also think I understand the feature well enough to explain it, then I will do so. Every time - including the two posts in the blog today, showing confusion with Stacking, Tiling, and Speed Dial.

    If I perceive that someone appears to be unjustly attacking the project, I may defend it. If I perceive someone is unjustly attacking me, I will (usually, unless I have the user on "ignore,") defend myself. You seemed to me, rather than asking a question, to be unjustly finding fault with the project and then with me. I am sorry I misunderstood your original intent. But being misunderstood doesn't mean "let's fight." It means "Clarify, explain."



  • ~
    I understand the points of both primary posters of this thread.

    Both seem valid.

    There are some times when I wish that a basic tutorial existed from the beginning for Vivaldi, and on one occasion in one of the snapshot blog threads, I did ask about them about making a Wiki.

    There was no response from the clearly busy devs, and that post is buried by now, I'm sure.

    Stumbling upon stuff is fine sometimes, but on other occasions, it is not such a good method.

    Fortunately for me in this testing situation, English IS my first language, and I am fairly experienced at using browsers, especially most recently the various Mozilla ones, and therefore many of my questions, comments, and requests, will come from that particular perspective.

    As such, I often am asking for devs to offer features and layout similar to those browsers.

    But this 'Tab Stacking' feature seems to have been unique to Opera, AFAIK, so I was lucky to have tested Opera versions 9 thru 11 in the past to try it, otherwise I would be in the same position as the OP, except for my first language being English.

    I'm happy that the short clear explanation from the blog thread got copied back to here for future reference, though, as it too would soon become buried over there.

    And since the stacking and tiling features are pretty much unique to Vivaldi at this time, I feel that they deserve some reference material.

    Now they HAVE some. :)



  • ~
    I decided to also copy the text version of that informative blog post, to supplement the screenshot, in case anyone prefers to view it that way.
    ~

    @Ayespy:

    In order to use the tiling options button, you have to have tiled tabs open in the display. Then the button becomes active and you can change the tiling pattern by clicking on it.

    In order to get tiled tabs open in the display, right click on a stack, select "Tile Tab Stack" and then left-click on that stack, and all its tabs will open tiled.

    Then use the tiling options button to change the way they are tiled. When you are done with that stack and move on to something else, you will find if you come back to tiling a stack, it will be tiled in the last pattern you had selected in the options box.

    ~
    Asking the same question had also been on my Vivaldi 'to-do' list.

    Another blog post asked for a way to tile a linked page in a web page with the origin page's content, to be added to the context menu.

    I like that idea too.


  • Moderator

    Thanks, davesnothere.

    To clarify things a tad more, I did not know any of the information in the just-quoted post at the time the OP created this topic. I learned all of it by experimenting, and then later shared what I had learned with other community members - which is what members of a community do, yes?

    But if copying it here helps anyone, I am pleased as punch. I am all about helping. Again, thank you, davesnothere!


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Vivaldi Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.