Open letter to Jon concerning M3
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@pesala Thanks for the screenshot. You can't see too much in the thumbnail but the layout looks very familiar.
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Danke für den Screenshot. Man kann im Thumbnail zwar nicht allzu viel erkennen aber das Layout wirkt sehr vertraut.
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@pesala said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:
You are looking for arguments, contrary to your alleged acceptance that people have different workflows.
Of course I'm looking for arguments. Only those will be able to make me rethink my positions. "Just because" has never been a strong incentive for me to question my own arguments.
And I don't say your point is invalid. It just might not be valid enough for me. If your workflow and your tools suit you, that's great.
This thread is about the built-in email client, but you don't want it. That is fine by me, but I find that it being built-in improves my workflow as my screenshot shows.
Which is your core argument - I can accept that (though I won't adopt it).
IMAP would be fine if I can store local copies of my email, and then delete it from the server.
I'm not far enough into IMAP to know if that's possible - AFAIK IMAP is just about the opposite, keeping all mails on the server. While you can surely keep an offline storage synced, I couldn't say if it allows mails to be deleted only on the remote system. I think POP3 might stay your way to go, especially as you seem to have it set up just right for you
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@morg42 said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:
I'm not far enough into IMAP to know if that's possible - AFAIK IMAP is just about the opposite, keeping all mails on the server. While you can surely keep an offline storage synced, I couldn't say if it allows mails to be deleted only on the remote system. I think POP3 might stay your way to go, especially as you seem to have it set up just right for you
I totally agree with you on that point! IMAP is not really a real transmission protocol but rather a control interface for a (cloud) mail service. Cloud is simply a modern term for everything that is provided on external servers by external service providers. IMAP actually represents the cloud very well, even though the term cloud did not exist before IMAP was invented.
Thus IMAP is actually in a fundamental conflict with what we long-serving M2 users want: A high-performance database engine that can search for keywords in hundreds of thousands of mails at lightning speed. IMAP cannot do this at all on the server side, because IMHO supports a full text search in the IMAP protocol. However, it is only offered by a few mail providers, especially not in freemails. And even if it is available, the search performance varies greatly and also depends on the performance or latency of the Internet connection.
In my opinion, full text search as we know it from M2 can only be done with a local database engine. Therefore all mails from the IMAP server would have to be mirrored locally. This may seem trivial at first glance, as long as you only dock a local mailer to an IMAP account. But as soon as there are several, which is actually one of the advantages of IMAP, the synchronization of user actions on other local mailers becomes very complicated. The developers of M3 like to correct me if I'm wrong.
Ja in diesem Punkt gebe ich dir vollkommen recht! IMAP ist eigentlich gar kein richtiges Übertragungsprotokoll sondern mehr eine Steuerungsschnittstelle für einen (Cloud-) Maildienst. Cloud ist ja einfach ein moderner Begriff für alles was auf externen Servern durch externe Dienstleister bereitgestellt wird. IMAP repräsentiert die Cloud eigentlich sehr gut, auch wenn es den Begriff Cloud noch gar nicht gab als IMAP erfunden wurde.
Damit steht IMAP eigentlich in einem fundamentalen Konflikt zu dem, was wir altgediente M2-Anwender uns wünschen: Eine hoch performante Datenbankengine, die in Hunderttausenden Mails blitzschnell nach Stichworten suchen kann. Das kann IMAP serverseitig gar nicht leisten, weil IMHO das IMAP-Protokoll eine Volltextsuche zwar vorsieht. Jedoch wird die nur von wenigen Mailprovidern angeboten, besonders nicht in Freemailern. Und selbst wenn sie vorhanden ist, variiert die Suchperformance stark und hängt auch noch von der Leistungsfähigkeit bzw. Latenz der Internetverbindung ab.
Volltextsuche wie wir sie von M2 her kennen, kann man meiner Meinung nach nur mit einer lokalen Datenbankengine realisieren. Deshalb müssten alle Mails vom IMAP-Server lokal gespiegelt werden. Das mag auf den ersten Blick trivial erscheinen, solange man nur einen lokalen Mailer an einem IMAP-Account andockt. Sobald da aber mehrere dran hängen, was eigentlich einer der Vorteile von IMAP ist, wird die Synchronisierung von Nutzeraktionen auf anderen lokalen Mailern sehr sehr kompliziert. Die Entwickler von M3 mögen mich korrigieren wenn ich mich irre.
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An IMAP client can mirror all mail data locally for offline access. So it can fully replace the non-strange operation mode (keep mails on server) of POP3.
Additionally, M2 kept a local search index even for mails not mirrored on the client.
This had the advantage of effectively managing large mailboxes with relatively small locally required storage space. -
Concerning privacy implications on keeping mails on a server:
There are (at least) 18 (interior) secret services in Germany alone.
And your provider will not really delete them, just not show them to you anymore.
Oh, the provider of the sender will of course keep a copy (or two).So I would assume there are somewhere between 10 and 1000 persistent copies of every mail ever sent. The only result of "mark as deleted" is the loss of a backup location the end user had access to.
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@becm the "p" in mail stands for privacy
For privacy, you don't need to think about mail if you don't completely encrypt mails in your client (and SSL or TLS don't count).
Still, all header data is plainly there for anyone interested to see. Much like postcards, just less secure and less private... -
@morg42 said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:
Much like postcards, just less secure and less private
Thank goodness you alerted me to this. I've now ditched emails in favour of postcards -- there, in one fell swoop i have enhanced my security & privacy. Job well done.
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M3 needs to come soon, I said it before, hide it in vivadi://experiments this way advanced users know what they are doing, I am responsible for any losses this way.
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Hello, Jon,
Thank you for your personal feedback on my post. I've only seen them now, because the forum is sorted a bit strangely. I hope very much that we will soon be able to watch a M3 beta of non-Sopranos. Hopefully, Intel or Microsoft will not add any updates until then, which will shut down Opera 12.18 finally. I have the feeling that the last meltdown and spectre updates didn't do the stability of Opera any good.
I fully support @saudiqbal's proposal:
@saudiqbal said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:
M3 needs to come soon, I said it before, hide it in vivadi://experiments this way advanced users know what they are doing, I am responsible for any losses this way.
Greets
Cody -
@jon I think one thing that could be good is comprehensive mail filtering.... Right now for instance in M2, there is basic filtering, where other mature email clients have more filtering options
Like, lets say I don't want to accept an email from someone, I can set up a rule.
IF ANY HEADER CONTAINS FROM [email protected]
MOVE TO TRASH
MARK AS READ
Something like that....
Or if ANY HEADER CONTAINS [email protected]
FORWARD TO... [email protected]etc etc... More complex filtering than what we have in Opera 12.16 for Windows. That would be really great...
I think thats all I can think of for now... If I can think of anything else, I'll come back!
Thanks,
Chris -
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Cleaning this thread a bit...
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@ayespy Humpfh.
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Any news about this topic? I mean more as "When its ready" or "Humpfh"
Currently state of my O12.18:
Incoming new mail, clicking it in the inbox - CRASH
Click on reply, wrote some letters, cyclic checking new mails in the background - CRASH
Opening a link in a mail directly in O12.18 - CRASHNot every time but often. Not really usable for productive. No workarounds because the old O12 code is incompatible with modern Intel CPU and IGFX. I think its the same issue which causes older versions of Corel Paint Shop Pro unusable on 8-Gen Core CPU. Asked Intel but they only laugh for issue requests related to such old software - justifiably.
I hope to read thats M3 will released soon.
