@gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum 😒

[pafflick]

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

(...) but to my disgust some stay here still, instead of being removed by Admin

Did you report them? If you didn't, then what's the reason?

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

(...) who delight in posting misogynistic &/or anti-LGBTQI remarks that of course are deeply offensive to people of those cohorts.

Again, did you report those posts? Are they still here? Any links perhaps? I want to take a look and (if necessary) take an action or raise the issue with the Community Manager, but I don't read all of the posts on the forums, so I'd like it if you pointed them out to me, please (could be via PM). Thanks in advance.

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

It should be to Vivaldi's great shame, but alas it appears not so, that historically on multiple occasions it was the victims rather than the perpetrators who received the opprobrium of V Mods & Admins. Multiple times over the past six years, for instance, my rebutting posts to some of those creeps were removed by Mods, with warnings given to me for "not keeping the forum all nice & friendly".

In one dire incident, after i rebutted a particularly nasty human-stain who'd written vile words, that creep had the temerity to complain to Admin about my "hurtful" post [remember, it was this person who had written the most hateful discriminatory words which created the problem], after which i was PMd by Admin, told off in no uncertain manner, & threatened with being banned. The victim who defended herself was the one V sided against! The perp lived on to poison other people. It's akin to the cops locking up the victim of a mugging, not the mugger.

To my knowledge, all the users who were purposefully breaking the rules got rebuked or sometimes even banned, regardless of whether they were the "perpetrators" or "victims". Responding with hate or attacking the alleged "perpetrator" back is not a way to deal with the issue. If anything, it only worsens the problem.

So, instead of trying to start unproductive battles of your own, I always suggest using the appropriate tools that were put in place to deal with such issues - which is reporting the posts or users (either by the flagging option or directly to one of the admins or mods).

Here's a little explanation of how it works: the reports are visible only to the mods and admins. The reported person is never notified about their post/profile being reported, so you don't need to worry about getting any sort of backlash from them (unless you openly attacked them prior to making a report). And you won't get yourself in trouble if you report "too many posts" (unless - of course - you try really hard to abuse the feature).

No report is ever ignored*. Each case is being looked at and - if required - appropriate action is being taken. Sometimes we discuss with other mods/admins about how we should handle a certain issue, before we take an action, as some people could be particularly sneaky about trying to not break the rules, while still infuriating or insulting others.

But as far as I remember, there was no case that I looked at where people who were attacking others or posted hateful comments were not rebuked in some way. Of course, that is my experience and if you know of any such case, I'd like to hear about it too. I might not read each comment that gets posted here, but I try to take a look at each report and I don't recall seeing any case that could possibly match your description.

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

IMO, if V wants to attract & retain wonderful members like GD, they need to get their priorities sorted out. Seeking a "nice happy polite forum" by punishing victims & tolerating creeps is not a smart philosophy... not to mention being rather hypocritical.

I agree that punishing the victims and tolerating the perpetrators is an evil practice and that is something that we should avoid at all cost. However, seeing someone being attacked and not reporting it to the "authorities" (and then loudly complaining about said authorities for not responding or for punishing you for crossing the line while taking matters into your own hands) is not a smart philosophy either.

In many cases, if you see something bad happens to someone, or witness someone else doing something illegal and you don't report it, you might get accused of complicity. That's why I always encourage people to report each individual post or person every time they feel someone else is misbehaving. That little flag icon really doesn't bite.

---

* Statistically, 1 in 10 reports get rejected if we believe that there is no action required on our part (but we still look into each issue). I checked a couple of last rejections and some of them were self-reports, "false positives" regarding spam, reports to move threads where they didn't belong to or users reporting others for merely just disagreeing with them.

[lamarca]

She did it for some reason.

[Catweazle]

@guigirl , a user can do what can't do a Mod, he can't block or ignore a user, he can only ban them.
But this in the most case is only possible if a user report an abuse of other user, the mod can't often read all posts in a forum.
Therefore, if I see any harassment or bad behavior, I have no qualms about reporting it. I also moderate on some forums and know that there is no other way, especially if the harassment is by PM or Chat, where the mods can't see it.
Only in this way the forum can be kept clean of undesirables.

[pafflick]

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

Are you effing serious? How outrageous.

Don't cuss at me, I didn't make that up. That's simply how the law works in many countries - you get punished if you were a witness of a crime and you didn't report it (unless, of course, there were circumstances such as fear of your own safety). But when it comes to the forums, you have so many ways to report a "crime" - even completely anonymous, with no repercussions for yourself whatsoever - that I cannot come up with any valid reason for not doing so, other than negligence.

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

Try this alternative. Some of us are so sick & tired of this crap, so worn down by it, that it's just easier to stop fighting. Don't bloody well criticise that, until & unless it's happened to you. In my case, these days, i simply block these pond scum, so i no longer have to be exposed to their toxins.

I understand your reasoning, it makes perfect sense. However, blocking such individuals without reporting them - if anyone - serves only the perpetrators, who might get away with their improper behavior because others have decided to not do anything about it.

I repeat again - please report such posts/individuals. It costs you just a few clicks and a few seconds of your time but it brings our attention to it and might help us all (yourself included) to get rid of such "toxins".

If you decide to just ignore them, then please - at the very least - don't complain and accuse us of bad intentions or siding with those "perpetrators". I'm trying to help whenever I can, but I'm not watching the forums 24/7 and I can't react to every act of misdemeanor. That's where the reports come in very handy - that is, if someone decides to actually make them... (Oh, and don't forget that you can report the moderators too if you think that they're doing something wrong).

So far you have made a total of 5 (five) reports, none of which concerns the situations that you talked here about. And you didn't point out any specific examples either (nor here, nor privately). Perhaps you reported them directly to other mods or admins - in which case they would hold the responsibility for ignoring them (if that's what happened). If you didn't, however, report any of such users, then please don't complain about the work that we do here in our spare time in such a way that makes us look like the villains, while you yourself have done nothing to help the situation get better.

I believe we both have a mutual goal of making these forums a better place. And I'm offering my help in investigating each issue that may arise here or there and doing the best I can to solve it. All I'm asking you is to help me and other mods by clicking a few buttons each time you see something bad going on. Is that a lot to ask for?

[Pesala]

@pafflick said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

If you decide to just ignore them, then please - at the very least - don't complain and accuse us of bad intentions or siding with those "perpetrators".

I have seen that happen when I have replied to or reported abusive users in the past. I followed up and checked out one such user's blog, which was full of potty-mouthed tirades over other forums that he had been banned from. Several of my rejected reports have been dismissed as “dumb requests” by a moderator you. (My mistake, I did not record the name).

Let’s just recognise that people see things differently. What one person sees as justifiable criticism is seen differently by others. Some look only at one post, while more experienced helpers look back at a user’s posting history. Context is important.

We all want these forums to be a friendly place, free from trolling and abuse. You have your opinions, and I have mine on the best way to achieve that.

[WildEnte]

This thread has become a wonderful example of how actions and words are interpreted to assumed intent, and where that leads.

@Pesala there is certainly some Buddhist wisdom stating that there is no absolute truth, and that reality is defined by observation from a specific system of reference which then becomes truth for that system of reference?

If there is no Buddhist wisdom describing that, then let it be known that it's the same in the science of quantum mechanics.

Says someone who has never moderated a forum or had to endure any forms of harassment

[pafflick]

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

There was one comprehensibly unsuitable self-reverential Mod here for a couple of years, who would simultaneously insult posters AND still be supported by Admin. I tried repeatedly to stop them [multiple PMs to Admin], but once it was clear that person was untouchable, i left.

If that's the one who I'm thinking about, then that issue has been solved as far as I know. If that's someone else - then I have no idea who you're talking about and what happened. I was not involved, so I can't comment on that.

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

Did you note the part about i gave up?.

Judging by the contents of some of your posts and the complaints we receive about them every now and then (from various users), I'd say your actions prove otherwise...

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

This has no relevance here whatsoever. You complain that you were cussed, whilst throwing irrelevant legal scenarios in my face.

That was just an example - perhaps exaggerated - but you're not trying to suggest that you were offended by it? If so, then I'm sorry - I was just trying to present a similar situation in which ignoring an issue may be considered as a wrong thing to do, but please, don't dig too deep into it.

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

Given your fixation on this

My fixation comes only from the fact that I don't have the time to read through every thread on the forums (and I commend everyone who devotes their time to do so, in order to help others, as @Gwen-Dragon did).

All I focus on is basically the reports and the threads that I previously contributed to. I'm trying to help whenever I can and I find the reports very helpful in my work - that's why I'm repeatedly asking to use them. It's free, it's simple and often times it helps a lot.

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

It's a forum. It's for discussion & debate, as well as tech help & support. It's terribly demeaning that you expect people to run crying to mamma the moment a creep happens along, without us initially rhetorically pushing back at them.

I think that it's much more demeaning to engage with people who are not worth it, instead of using the appropriate tools to deal with them. Comparing it to "running crying to mamma" is rather ridiculous. If someone is unrepentant, then why waste your time on them? Pushing back - on the other hand - seems rather immature to me. That is what kids do.

Of course, a forum is a place for debate & discussion. A civil and polite one. But if you decide to lower your standards and get on the same level as the rude, unmannerly "perpetrator", then don't expect us to cheer you on in that battle. Usually, "rhetorically pushing back" at them only adds fuel to the fire and thus creates extra work on our part, so this shouldn't come out as a surprise that we're not particularly fond of that.

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

It's ridiculous, furthermore, that you/Mods/Admin expect affronted individuals to "play nice" with a self-demonstrated miscreant in our push-backs.

I think it's quite reasonable to expect mature people to act mature. You either reply respectfully (even if you were not treated with respect) and defend yourself or you decide they're simply not worthy of your time and you report & block them. Fighting back helps nobody. It only makes things worse.

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

Then, it's simply preposterous once Admin belatedly weighs in, that they weirdly assess the merits of the push-back in isolation from the instigating offender.

Just because someone is breaking the rules doesn't give another person the right to break them as well. That's flawed thinking. The offenders are being dealt with, but we cannot just ignore other users who - despite repeated warnings - continue to engage with such offenders every now and then, provoking them further. Everyone is being held accountable for their own actions. I wouldn't expect blaming others for my own misdemeanors to help me get away with them and I believe that's reasonable thinking.

[pafflick]

@pesala said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

I have seen that happen when I have replied to or reported abusive users in the past. I followed up and checked out one such user's blog, which was full of potty-mouthed tirades over other forums that he had been banned from.

I admit to not checking the blogs, as I have no authority over them anyway.

@pesala said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

Several of my rejected reports have been dismissed as “dumb requests” by you.

That is far from the truth. (Edit: the comment turned out to be true, although it was made by another moderator, not me)

Whenever I'm concerned about something a moderator said or did, I'll raise the issue internally or contact the Community Manager directly. That's why I mentioned the possibility to report also the moderators. Though they're being given more trust, they're still expected to follow the Code of Conduct and serve as a good example. That is at least what I'm trying to achieve, but I can't be responsible for another mod's wrongdoing.

As it turned out, I never called any of your requests "dumb". I always respected the work that you did here, and I still admire you for it, but that doesn't mean that I will always agree with you or ignore it if you (hypothetically) treat someone else harshly or unfairly. I believe we both have honest intentions, though none of us are perfect and we're subject to mistakes.

[Eggcorn]

@guigirl said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

It's terribly demeaning that you expect people to run crying to mamma the moment a creep happens along, without us initially rhetorically pushing back at them.

That's called "don't feed the trolls". And if you ask me, the most demanding part of that isn't resisting the urge to push back. But distinguishing the trolls, from the folks who put their foots in their mouth or something.

But the saying "don't feed the trolls" exists for a reason: The trolls are not worth your time and energy. And all you're accomplishing by "pushing back", is rewarding them by giving them the attention they crave.

[Pesala]

@pafflick said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

That is far from the truth.

Thanks to Vivaldi’s excellent notes features I can refer back to your a moderator’s comments about overly defensive users, so I know that what I said is the truth.

[npro]

Shameful that GwenDragon was forced to leave.

[pafflick]

This post is deleted!

[TbGbe]

@Catweazle Yes, I have seen GD's blog.
I simply meant that I am unaware of (any of) the "messages" referred to, therefore my comments were only generalizations and not referring to this situation.

[kahukura]

The Forum should be strong enough to keep such beautiful members as GD. Hate and Intolerance do not have a place in any progressive community, never.

[Eggcorn]

@kahukura Is that why she left? People leave forums all the time, for reasons that have nothing to do with hate and intolerance. For one thing, people can just burn out from putting too much time and effort into a forum.

Edit #1:

Hate and Intolerance do not have a place in any progressive community

I don't think the Vivaldi forums should be a progressive community, a conservative community, or anything of the sort! There are already forums on the Internet to talk to talk to politically like-minded people. Just go to one of those, if that's what you're looking for.

Edit #2: Oh, you know why she left because she explained it in her blog.

[barbudo2005]

@npro Said:

Shameful that GwenDragon was forced to leave.

Please, a little transparency and consequence. By whom?

[DoctorG]

@barbudo2005 said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

Please, a little transparency and consequence. By whom?

u know bad guys do not tell you their identity.

[Eggcorn]

@catweazle said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

I,ve seen some in the past, but what not can be seen is the posts in PM and Chat. It is there where apparently she has received harassment.

You might be right. I can't see what happens in PMs. But here's something from Dragon's blog post:

Unfortunately, it always attracts the vermin of the web when women do not post anonymously

I have seen some negative attitudes towards women, both on and off the Internet. There were times on the Internet when folks assumed I was a woman, and then didn't act appropriately. Though there were a few times they assumed I was a man, and then didn't act appropriately.

[Ayespy]

@pafflick said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

I cannot come up with any valid reason for not doing so, other than negligence.

I can. Exhaustion.

[Ayespy]

@eggcorn said in @gwen dragon has left the Vivaldi forum :

I don't think the Vivaldi forums should be a progressive community

And yet, hate and intolerance do not belong here. Period. It's written right in the community standards.

It's an endemic problem among humans that they devalue, minimize, even nullify the concerns of those unlike them, literally further oppressing persons who have a life experience of being discriminated against, by claiming they are wrong and unreasonable to react strongly to repeated suggestions of that oppression, and of its insignificance. Why? Because you weren't there, you didn't live it, you can shrug it off.

And this is not an exaggeration: researchers are learning that "shell shock" and "PTSD" suffered for a lifetime after months or years in battle, is not merely the province of armed men and warriors. It is a condition that afflicts every kind of person who has suffered repeated attacks on their ability to succeed, participate, survive, unmolested, in society. This can include fat people, ugly people, women, gays, trans, religious groups, victims of bullying, small people, the poor, members of disadvantaged races, disabled, people on the Aspergers/autistic spectrum, people with allergies, etc.

Society and empathy-impaired persons tend to tell these damaged people to "buck up," "get over it," "don't be so sensitive," "be logical," "be objective," etc. You literally are expecting the impossible of such persons, and are finding fault with them when they don't react the way you feel they "should."

The community standards Vivaldi puts forth for the Forums try, in some measure, to take the foregoing into account.