Gendering in forum

Catweazle

You can never be sure of anything on the network

Steffie

@JohnConnorBear said in Gendering in forum:

Second, we aren't aware of what you consider "polite" in your corner of the world.

Then consider this part of your education. Nobody who now or later reads this thread can have any excuse whatsoever to ever claim ignorance again.

Patience, you must have.

Respect & learning everyone must have.

hlehyaric

@Steffie We must be cautious and we mustn't be western-centric either. It's a global forum, with users from all around the world. Forum's main language is English. You're a native English speaker, I'm not, but we both have a western culture background. We are privileged here, it's easier for us to manage some issues, (even in English for me), than for people from a different background, a different culture, a different language. So respect, learning, obviously. Patience, too.

As a side note, the user, whose blunder caused all this commotion, made the same mistake twice. Once, it's forgivable. Twice, it's irritating. Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum.

Catweazle

@hlehyaric , after perfection, only decay can exist.

hlehyaric

@Catweazle Of course, but, as far as I remember, I was not talking about perfection. I never wrote I was perfect or that anybody else was or wasn't.

Steffie

@hlehyaric I don't disagree per se, but i do feel that qualification & context should be added here.

@Gwen-Dragon = JOINED 1 FEB 2015, 02:08
@Steffie = JOINED 6 FEB 2015, 21:20
@hlehyaric = JOINED 17 MAY 2016, 02:38

You've been here sufficiently long that you must have seen, as certainly have Lilo & I, numerous disrespectful arrogant posts wherein the statistically-preponderant male writer blithely assumed that everyone else on the forum was also male, & so wrote accordingly.
Some [certainly not all, & i would like to believe a diminishing number of] other male forum members saw no problem at all in that, & seemed sometimes amused, sometimes hostile, with the very idea that women might be displeased at being overlooked & disrespected in such a way.
Some [certainly not all, & i would like to believe a diminishing number of] men fail to grasp that this issue can be highly emotive for women in context of millennia of male oppression & diminution.
No male writer should henceforth [nor indeed historically] be even slightly surprised if they encounter push-back from some of us uppity women, if we are made to feel less than equal [irrespective of by intent or ignorance].
A really frequent refrain in numerous tech fora [Vivaldi is not immune], when some of we aforesaid uppity women do push-back, is for some males to respond with irritation or anger that we are trying to make the forum into "another gender-wars platform" [ugh] & how dare we! In fact we seek balance & equal respect, nothing more... or less.

hlehyaric

@Steffie You're right. I don't disagree with you or Gwen-Dragon either.
The only thing I disagree with is that sentence «Gwen is not a male name» as if it was obvious Gwen is a female name. It is for you and me and her. It cannot be for someone with a different culture and a different language. That's why I talked about not being western-centric.
The user we talk about, the only thing I'm sure, is not an English speaking person (my English is better, that says it all). For the rest, I know nothing. So let's be generous, one mistake is forgivable. The user was told about the mistake. So, once again the same mistake, though Gwen-Dragon says she's a woman in her signature. I'm sure she feels obliged to indicate her gender, cause she knows otherwise many (male) users would assume she's a man.(BTW, as far as I remember, no male user I know here says he's a man in his signature; just saying…) I understand that things that seem benign for male users are very irritating for you and her and all other women. The fact is they are, but some men just don't want to understand. Hence the gender-wars refrain.
In one of my post, I pointed out Gwen-Dragon to another thread where the OP started this way «Hi, lads», as if, obviously, there are only lads on this forum. It's just unbelievable. I'm pretty sure the OP won't understand Gwen-Dragon reply. So, yes, there is an issue, quite surely magnified on tech fora.

Steffie

@hlehyaric Oh i assuredly agree with you -- & without in any way wishing to sound condescending or sarcastic, i delight in every encounter i have with an actual evolved male, so your imbued wisdom brings me joy.

Whilst i strongly, emphatically, unreservedly comprehend Lilo's frustration, & truly commend her strength in rebutting, pls note that at no point in any of my postings herein did i endorse any assumption that it is easy or even possible for cross-cultural first-name gender-recognition to be judicious &/or efficacious. Au contraire, i fervently believe that all assumptions need to be jettisoned, & instead respectful gender-neutral writing [& speaking] should occur, until & unless the person being addressed chooses to disclose their own gender-identity. Some do, some don't, hence IMO all assumptions should be dropped & neutrality maintained for as long as necessary [which might be forever, depending on individual sensibilities].

Ayespy

@hlehyaric Other "not male names," in English which are indeed, in some cases, carried by males: Laurie, Gail, Gayle, Carol, Carroll. Sasha, Lark, Robin, Ariel, Beryl, Carey, Kary, Merril, Salem, Starr, Lin, Lynn, Gem, Garland, Fern, Fran, Cam, etc., etc. One assumes at one's peril.

Pesala

@Pesala said in Gendering in forum:

what we see is not as real as we believe it to be

People often impute motives and attitudes in forum posts that are not there, were never intended, and exist only in the eye of the beholder.
When communicating on forums, so much that we read from body language and appearance is not available on the page. Most regular forum users read SHOUTING as being rude, demanding, or aggressive. Although it is widely understood, many occasional users are not aware of the convention, and do not know how to use text formatting for emphasis or irony.
Some cultures have much less aversion to using cuss words than others.
Those for whom English is a second language may often use the wrong term, omit capitalisation, or can not use correct grammar.
Even Americans do not know how to speak English. Over the other side of the pond, what they say may be fine, but it is plainly wrong — because the Queen said so.

Steffie

@Ayespy Cuts both ways too, of course, eg the renowned author Lionel Shriver. What a bloke.

Steffie

@JohnConnorBear Yes ma'am.

Ayespy

@Steffie Oh, don't get me started on Lionel, Rusty, Taylor, Dakota, Bobby, Bertie, Blake, Andy, Sawyer, Elliot, Emerson...

Steffie

@JohnConnorBear Just so it'll make sense to you why there'll be no further replies to you by me after this, i've just added you to my blocked user list. Tragically henceforth i'll no longer be enlightened by your wisdom.

A Former User

Just to add my thoughts (I don’t know how much of my opinion is based in these words) —

Although I can’t find the particular post right now, I’m sure I made the mistake once. You better not know how much I was (and still am, though it’s getting less as time goes) ashamed. But I think it helped me, I pay more attention to genders since then (and now I have the dragon image associated with ”she”, not “he”). I must say, it helps me a lot that most female forum members indicate their gender (mostly in their profile picture) while male often just ignore this.

Now of my language background: I (really really) hate that Czech makes more difference in genders. But as English uses they (I still don’t understand its grammar in this use case, that’s why I often choose not to use it) if the speaker is not sure, Czech uses he (and it’s correct, I can’t do anything with that) though it is common to make the text unreadable and add female suffixes after “/” or inside “()”.

And now of the reaction: I know this is not exactly the same (ignorance vs. confusion), but sometimes (not often) it happens that someone thinks I’m a girl (because of my long hair) — I usually just laugh slightly and make things clear (and this is the ideal reaction IMO; though it’s not easy and it supports further spreading of the issue).

I’ll have to think of this a little, it’s morning for me and I did’t yet have much time to think what to put in this post. Please don’t get angry with me and be patient, I’ll try to look at it from other angles and I’ll share results if I get anywhere.

LonM

@potmeklecbohdan I can see "they" being difficult to learn for a non native speaker. "(s)he" uses singular grammar referring to one person.

But "they", even if applied in a gender neutral sense to one person, behaves as if it was concerning multiple people.

Steffie

@LonM Using plural pronouns for singular nouns truly breaks all the rules of grammar i was taught in primary school 500 years ago. However over the past two decades as the shackles of patriarchy began to loosen, many women, & many in the gender-diverse community, became happy & willing to defy traditional grammar norms in preference to perpetuating traditional [offensive] gendered linguistic norms. Lesser of two evils...

LonM

@Steffie definitely. I've made a conscious effort to use they as much as possible.

Recently I had someone call me out on this talking about how he was only 1 person, and I shouldn't be saying they. This was in response to a piece of technical writing, so I guess the "official" guidelines people use are still a bit dated.

Steffie

@LonM said in Gendering in forum:

someone call me out on this talking about how he was only 1 person

To which it might have been amusing [well, to idiots like me, anyway] if you'd responded

Are you really sure?

AltCode

@JohnConnorBear said in Gendering in forum:

In other conditions, you would be busy working in a factory to bring food on the table, or you will be on your hands and knees in a field to pick up potatoes for few dimes. There are hospitals filled with dying people. There are wars everywhere.

Ergo, the problem at hand is unimportant?
Have a look at the fallacy of relative privation, something you are very guilty of employing here. If the article isn't to your liking, have a look at this:

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