Better "nextgen" Bookmarks



  • Bookmarks may be the single most important web browser feature that is not actual displaying of web pages. Despite that all current major web browsers have only the most basic bookmarking features. There remains big untapped potential in development of better "nextegn" bookmarks. Improvements in that area will surely help to differentiate web browser from others. Use cases for bookmarks (as I see it) can be split into two major categories. One is quick access to frequently visited web pages, and the other deals with knowledge management. [ol] [li][b]Quick access to frequently visited web pages[/b]: This is the category current web browser handle quite well, so I won't go into much details. It includes features like speeddail/start-page, simple bookmarks bar, pinning & restoring of tabs, smart address bar suggestions etc.[/li] [li][b]Personal knowledge management[/b]: This is the area where every major web browser fails quite miserably. It includes things like saving links to read later, saving and organizing links to web pages that are resources for specific topic, organizing (folders/tags), sharing/collaborating on collection of resources, marking what's important on web page, better searching, better syncing (sync only specific collections) etc.[/li] [/ol] Gathering web resources can be for school, work, shopping research, hobbies, health research, sports or any other project you are working on (alone or in a team). Bookmarking tool should provide means to save, organize large amount of bookmarks and to latter find saved resource when needed. But current built in bookmarking solutions fail as features they provide focus primarily on quick access to frequently visited pages and not on knowledge management. Third party services like Pocket focus more on "save to read it later" and provide limited organization and search features (especially free versions). With all that said, here are some bookmarking feature requests/suggestion for Vivaldi (most of them relate to bookmarks sidebar): [ol] [li][Search] Include bookmark's folder path in search. Not just page's title and tags. Folders are quite similar to tags. Why would I need to tag bookmark with "Design" tag if I already placed it "Design" folder (or path that includes Design). Maybe an option to toggle that on/off…if there is any occasion where it would be preferred not to search inside folder path. (I listed this first, as it would be a quite noticeable improvement and it probably isn't too expensive to implement)[/li] [li][Search] Show multiple columns when showing search results. (Columns: title, path, description, tags, date added) [ol][li]Sort search results by different column[/li][/ol] [li][Add Bookmark] Drag tab to folder or right click on folder in sidebar and add current tab[/li] [li][Search] Filter by added/created date or last accessed date[/li] [li][Organization] Mark bookmark with a star or specific color (to help you quickly identify important bookmarks in specific collection) (it must be visible mark/icon...tags are text based and not visible)[/li] [li][Organization] Big (two panels) bookmarking manager (like windows explorer). Left: folder tree, right: bookmarks with details in columns (title, path, description, tags, date added) [/li] [li][Search] Index bookmarked pages web contents (option to search inside contents....google internet search shouldn't be better than local bookmarks search)[/li] [li][Content] Clip important site content and/or highlight important text on web page (show that content on mouse hover over bookmark to quickly see what is important to us on that page)[/li] [li][Sync] Sync profiles: excluded(blacklist) & whitelists (for each sync profile configure to only sync specific folders/collections) (You don't want all personal bookmarks to be synced to PC at work, only work related folders) [/li] [li][Collaboration] Shared collection/folder - synced between multiple users[/li] [li][Privacy] Self-hosted sync server [/li] [li][Content/Archiving] Save snapshot of a webpage along with a bookmark. Like a personal wayback machine for bookmarks since many articles or even full web sites suddenly disappear. ([url=https://vivaldi.net/en-US/forum/all/11447-better-nextgen-bookmarks/edit/61965#62014]by Paul_[/url]) [/li] What do you think? What part of bookmarking would you like to be improved. Share your ideas and I will add them to this list. I don't expect all features to be implemented, if any at all. But maybe we'll get lucky and developers implement some of these. This is probably the longest forum post that I've ever written, but I've lost even more time searching, adding and configuring half-baked browser extensions that would hopefully add functionality to a web browser that should be there from the start (FF & Chrome I am looking at you two). Vivaldi looks really promising with the idea of a web browser with more power features built-in. So share your thoughts on what would the most epic web browser (bookmarking wise) be like :)



  • I think it's more efficient spend less time organising your bookmarks and more time reading the pages that you bookmarked. Often, it's quicker to just search again for a reference, than it is to search for the bookmark. A new search may also find more recent relevant pages.

    The notes feature is great for organising stuff to read later. You can copy a key paragraph or sentence to a note and double-click the note to find the page later.

    You can use nicknames for frequently visited pages, and just enter the nickname in the URL field.

    Organising bookmarks in folders is not really necessary if you use the quick find field. I usually end up doing that anyway as I cannot remember in which folder I saved the desired bookmark. Still, sometimes it helps to organise bookmarks in folders. I don't think I would ever bother with tagging. Just rename your bookmarks when you create them, or later, to make bookmark searching more effective.



  • @Pesala:

    I think it's more efficient spend less time organising your bookmarks and more time reading the pages that you bookmarked. Often, it's quicker to just search again for a reference, than it is to search for the bookmark. A new search may also find more recent relevant pages.

    The notes feature is great for organising stuff to read later. You can copy a key paragraph or sentence to a note and double-click the note to find the page later.

    You can use nicknames for frequently visited pages, and just enter the nickname in the URL field.

    Organising bookmarks in folders is not really necessary if you use the quick find field. I usually end up doing that anyway as I cannot remember in which folder I saved the desired bookmark. Still, sometimes it helps to organise bookmarks in folders. I don't think I would ever bother with tagging. Just rename your bookmarks when you create them, or later, to make bookmark searching more effective.

    Different people have different needs and different workflows. It doesn't mean specific workflow is better or worse.

    You make some bold assumptions about my bookmarking habits. Yes, search engines are good for quickly finding popular content. In spite of that it has happened not so infrequently that I couldn't find specific webpage I needed, but I remembered to have read it before (but unfortunately I didn't bookmark it). Not all good content is listed on first page of google search and some keywords are way too frequent (if search would be that great bookmarks would be obsolete and notes feature you suggested likewise). Also, most of the time, I read the page before I bookmark it.

    Yeah notes feature is nice. But it doesn't work as you described. You have to copy-paste text and also copy-paste address for double clicking to work. (Edit: this is behavior caused by extension ) Pasted text inserts html code of the address at the end in plain text instead of rich formatted link, so you have to copy-paste it instead of just clicking on it. It is nice feature nonetheless (you could say it is partial implementation of feature suggested under #eight), but for note taking I will continue using Evernote as it better fits my requirements.

    Quick find field is not all that great as you also have to suggest workaround at the end of the last paragraph. I think dragging bookmark to a folder you already have expanded in sidebar is not slower that renaming the bookmark. On the contrary, I find it quicker. Both techniques achieve similar result, but I could argue that having bookmark organized under collection is superior than inserting a tag in bookmark tile (because renaming a bookmark to insert more searchable keywords in the title isn't really that different from tagging). The only problem with folders is that quick find field currently ignores folders.



  • Great ideas!

    Generally Bookmarks are more than a title and an URL. I've collected a few hundred Bookmarks with Opera as a resource pool with tutorials, graphics, news, videos, etc., they are my personal library.

    I also would love to archive websites, something like a personal wayback machine for my bookmarks - or at least a (full height) screenshot captured when creating the bookmark since many articles or even full web sites suddenly disappear.

    NewOpera has a pretty nice GUI for viewing and managing bookmarks. :oops:



  • @Paul_:

    Great ideas!

    Generally Bookmarks are more than a title and an URL. I've collected a few hundred Bookmarks with Opera as a resource pool with tutorials, graphics, news, videos, etc., they are my personal library.

    I also would love to archive websites, something like a personal wayback machine for my bookmarks - or at least a (full height) screenshot captured when creating the bookmark since many articles or even full web sites suddenly disappear.

    NewOpera has a pretty nice GUI for viewing and managing bookmarks. :oops:

    Thanks! That has happened to me too. I have added your idea to the list. :)



  • @zigzag:

    Yeah notes feature is nice. But it doesn't work as you described.

    My mistake. I thought that double-click was already implemented, but you have to click the Go to Address button in the bottom panel.

    [attachment=3649]GotoAddress.png[/attachment]
    Attachments:



  • @Pesala:

    @zigzag:

    Yeah notes feature is nice. But it doesn't work as you described.

    My mistake. I thought that double-click was already implemented, but you have to click the Go to Address button in the bottom panel.

    No you were right, double clicking does work. I was describing behavior when you create note with "New Note" button in notes menu. When pasting text into note, source address is not automatically set like it is if you use "Add selection as New Note" context menu command.

    Note with address is a lot like bookmark with description. Overlapping functionality between these two features maybe means they are good candidates to merge into single more powerful feature that supports both use cases and avoid the need for two separate sidebar managers that do mostly the same thing.



  • Hi zigzag. A quick vote of support here for your ideas & encouragement to continue. I would object to being told by anyone [especially when they do not know me or my needs & aspirations] that my personally-honed methodology was wrong / inappropriate / unnecessary / other synonym, & that instead of doing A, B, C i should actually be doing X, Y Z. i postulate that you also might not appreciate such implicit criticism. Person A's methodology, if derived from a careful appraisal of their own unique circumstances & requirements, is no less or more valid than Person B's… but that applies also in reverse. Onya for having a go!



  • @Steffie:

    I would object to being told by anyone [especially when they do not know me or my needs & aspirations] that my personally-honed methodology was wrong / inappropriate / unnecessary / other synonym, & that instead of doing A, B, C i should actually be doing X, Y Z.

    I think spending an excessive proportion of one's time organising bookmarks is inefficient, but anyone can choose how they spend their time, including the Vivaldi developers.

    Vivaldi already has much of what is needed: speed dials and speed dial folders, bookmarks bar, nicknames, linked notes, and sessions. I think zigzag's main point was that Vivaldi (like all browsers) fails quite miserably for personal knowledge management.

    I put it to you that browsers don't provide features that very few users need. That is a job for extensions like Tab Vault to do.

    I posit that all that Vivaldi needs is some refinement of the existing features. Points 2 is certainly likely to come, as is the much requested sync option. Point 12 is already available in Notes.



  • Thank you Steffie!
    Only if lots of people show interest in these features, there a chance that developers consider implementing them.

    Like Pesala pointed out, there isn't much sense, from business perspective, in implementing major features, if only few users will use them. So tell others about this :)

    @Pesala:

    Spending an excessive proportion of one's time organising bookmarks is silly, but anyone can choose how they spend their time, including the Vivaldi developers.

    I put it to you that browsers don't provide features that very few users need. That is a job for extensions like Tab Vault to do.

    It takes less than a second to bookmark. To organize a bookmark I just save it to specific folder. That's why I use sidebar (I leave expand relevant folder in the sidebar). Still less than one second ;) How is that excessive proportion of one's time? I use bookmarks to quickly save resources when doing research or when learning, because bookmarking is FAST. Faster than making notes or anything else I have tried. Yeah for important things I make notes, but other things I just quickly bookmark.

    Problem is that getting to those bookmarks can be awkward with current tools (any) web browser offer us. Proposed features would let us save even more time, not spend it on organizing!

    For example: I used search, but that keyword is unfortunately not in bookmark's title. However one of parent's folder contains that keyword. If that bookmark would be a file on a disk, any search tool would find it using only that keyword. Somehow all browsers have different standards and manage to ignore parent folders in search. Look at this:
    Imagine you have following folder structure "Programming\Design patterns\Composite" and bookmark titled "The most useful partitioning design pattern" that contains the best example of the topic you have ever seen. Your search "composite" doesn't return desired bookmark. To make example even nicer, let's say you also have folder structure "Work\Templates\Composite pattern\examples" that you created another time (yeah poor duplicated organization, but that's what often happens in real life…spending too much time on organization is silly :) ). The trick is that desired bookmark can be hiding in any of the following folders: "Composite", "Composite pattern" or "examples". Search result from Vivaldi will show you only two folders and not the desired bookmark so now it's up to you to dig through all those folders to find it. Or you can try your luck on google, but maybe in that case that link is only on page 10.

    But you might say, you know, if you used tags, that would not happen! True, but how long does it take you to drag 10 bookmarks into "Programming\Design patterns\Composite" folder vs. how long it would take you to tag each with "Programming", "Design patterns" and "Composite" tags as you create them.

    Let's continue to show use of another proposed feature. When you were researching that composite pattern you found nine pages that were relevant to your needs. Because that research took time you decide to quickly bookmark those pages, so that you won't have to go through all those articles again to find those nine good ones. Few seconds used to create those bookmarks doesn't really compare to time you needed to find them. (Spending more time to create real note(s) might be an overkill because those bookmarks are all you need). Now at the end of your research you found tenth really good webpage. It contains perfect example for what you need right now. You could choose to delete other nine bookmarks, but you decide to keep them because they provide a little different perspective on the subject (and you never know). The simplest solution would be to mark bookmark with a star (so you can quickly see at a later time that this one was really good).

    Pesala, I hope that you can see from these examples that intention of these features is to save time. I understand that you may have no use of these features, but intention of this thread is to find out how many people find these improvements useful, not how many do not ;)

    PS: I won't even go into how snapshots and text only linked notes differ, and disadvantages of having too look in two places (bookmarks & linked notes) for saved resources. Also I haven't found a combination of browser+extensions that would come close to proposed features. Too much work to develop and keep up-to-date or they require too much integration or low level access. I posted this here because I saw that supposedly vision of Vivaldi developers is "a browser that is rich in functionality". Other web browsers already provide experience of barebone browser + extensions, do we really need another one like that?



  • @zigzag:

    I hope that you can see from these examples that intention of these features is to save time.

    I still hold that Vivaldi already has most of what's needed, it just needs a bit of polish.

    Duplicate bookmarks are already shown, as in Opera 12.17 so you don't need to add it again. Nicknames or quick search will find the bookmark quickly enough.

    [attachment=3676]DuplicateBookmarks.png[/attachment]

    [attachment=3677]EditBookmark.png[/attachment]
    Attachments:
    ,



  • @Pesala:

    I still hold that Vivaldi already has most of what's needed, it just needs a bit of polish.

    Duplicate bookmarks are already shown, as in Opera 12.17 so you don't need to add it again. Nicknames or quick search will find the bookmark quickly enough.

    I am trying to explain it to you why I need them and how current features fail in those cases. And the purpose of this thread is to see if there are enough other people that are also interested in them so that developers would maybe consider implementing some of them.

    On the contrary, it seems to me like you are trying to convince me that I don't need them, because you don't need them. While without even properly reading what I wrote you suggest existing features that have nothing to do with the problem I described. If you read again part about duplication you will see that I am talking about folder structure that can be considered a duplicate from organizational point of view. There NO single mention of duplicate bookmarks. If I didn't explained something clearly or wrote it wrong, I am sorry, English is not my first language. But you are welcome to ask me to clarify or correct those things. Or we can just agree to disagree about whether current bookmarks feature set is adequate or not :P


  • Moderator

    I applaud your tenacity and your equanimity, zigzag.

    I, personally, (and a number of others I suppose) don't perceive a benefit to myself for the options you propose, especially as against the amount of time consumed to code them.

    HOWEVER, that doesn't mean your suggestions are without merit. At the end of the day, Vivaldi seeks to make a home for people with unique preferences - so carry on! Good luck with finding a comfortable home here!



  • I wish everyone would make at least some effort to explain why they need a particular feature. It would make it easier to beat it into a workable form that would be beneficial to more users.

    I am convinced that you think you need it, but I don't see much there that is helpful for most users.

    I started a Poll to see how many bookmarks users have. Perhaps that will give the developers some idea how popular various bookmark features are likely to be.

    @Zigzag:

    To make example even nicer, let's say you also have folder structure "Work\Templates\Composite pattern\examples" that you created another time (yeah poor duplicated organization, but that's what often happens in real life…

    When you add bookmarks, the icon in the Address bar changes if a bookmark already exists from "Add bookmark" to "Edit bookmark". It may be possible to add duplicates some way, but it should not happen in normal use.



  • Thanks Ayespy! I agree some suggested features are a bit exotic and would take a lot of work to implement. Not all things I suggested are equally important. Some are really a must (to me) while others are only "it would be nice to have". Is there anything you would change to bookmark related tools?

    Pesala I am trying my best to explain them, but it is hard to describe them with so many variables. So the results become walls of text :P In that example I am trying to say that paths "Work\Templates\Composite pattern\examples" and "Programming\Design patterns\Composite" both contain folders where you could save article about the Composite pattern. Paths in these examples are all only folders, so bookmark deduplication logic does not apply here. Problem I was trying to describe was that there is one bookmark you are trying to find (only one, no duplicates) that can be in any of these folders, but you don't remember in which one it is. The point here was that the way search is currently implemented, it does not help you find the bookmark in cases like this.



  • Zigzag – You have already experienced this for yourself, i'm sad to say, & the longer you are here in our/your community the more you will see & probably experience this. I swear some members appear to take a perverse delight in arguing for its own sake. :) You could write well researched explanatory treatises til the cows come home, but you'd still be "wrong".

    BTW FYI, i like you am an extremely intensive user of bookmarks. I have thousands of them, very carefully hierarchically structured with a deep folder / subfolder structure, & i also do make productive use of duplicates & triplicates, because it is commonplace that certain webpages can have pertinence to more than one subject folder. My system works very well for me & is very efficient... but would be even better with better browser search tools [especially including the full path in the results]. I simply will not be told by someone that my method is wrong, my technique invalid, my suggestions for V improvements unnecessary. Hence your post rang many bells for me.


  • Moderator

    There are some interesting ideas in there.

    I would really love to be able to see in which folder bookmarks are residing when I do a search, and including the folder names in the search is a very good idea, too, in my opinion. Whenever I want to organize my bookmarks, I still switch to (new) Opera because the V7 Bookmarks extension works exactly like that regarding search. It basically preserves the folder structure when you search and just does live filtering. This is how it looks when I search for "sync", for example:

    [attachment=3756]ScreenShot2016-06-05at01.10.57.png[/attachment]
    Attachments:



  • @NSSynapse:

    Including the folder names in the search is a very good idea, too, in my opinion.

    I fail to see the benefit. We already learnt that some users have duplicates in different folders, whether for their own convenience or by accident. If one's purpose in searching for a bookmark is to go to the bookmarked page, what difference does it make in which folder the bookmark is saved? You can click any of the duplicates and get to the page in the shortest possible time without knowing this additional information.

    Yes, I read that you want to organise your bookmarks, not use them, but my question is "Why is it important to organise them when we have the quick search field?" Would you fail to locate a bookmark if it was in the wrong folder?

    Opera 12.18 has an excellent Bookmarks Manager with split view, etc., for organising bookmarks, but I never use it in spite of having over 2,000 bookmarks in nearly 100 folders. Any more than a cursory sorting of bookmarks into folders seems like a complete waste of time. If I come across a bookmark in the wrong folder, or with a non-descriptive name, I will fix the issue on the spot. Over time, my bookmarks get better organised and dead link gets removed when I come across them

    I suspect that tags will be more useful for organising bookmarks than relying on folders. Though I don't need tags, it might be worth adding for those with 5,000+ bookmarks.


  • Moderator

    I could think of certain edge cases where specifying folder location might be useful. I basically never search my own bookmarks because I already know exactly where each one is. I've about 1500 of them in 70 or so folders but, interestingly, if my bookmark organization didn't match my mental organization, it might be of benefit to me to know which folder a bookmark was found in.

    Potentially, I could have 50 different bookmarks (not duplicates) named "Secretary of State" or "Corporate Search" in 50 different folders. Each would be for a different state. So If I seached "Secre…" I would get fifty results and want to know if they were in the AL,AK, AR, AZ, CA, CO etc. folder. Factually, I would never search this, because if I wanted CO, the first thing I would do is go to that folder, and pick the "Colorado Secretary of State" bookmark.

    Further, 23 states in the US have a "Lincoln" County. What if I want to go to the Lincoln County Assessor website in NE, Rather that the one in, say ID or GA? If I input "Linc..." I would want to see which state folder it was in. But again, I personally don't search. I just go.


  • Moderator

    Did you know there are 41 towns or cities in the United States named Springfield?

    What's with that?


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Vivaldi Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.