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Tab stacking - Expand/collapse feature



  • Hi, it would be great if it were possible to expand/collapse "Tab Stacks" like it was implemented in Opera 12. Vivaldi's tab stacking is great so far, but with the Opera expand/collapse feature, its possible to focus on one of the available stacks at a time and make the tabs more accessable. Regards, Rev



  • I missed this for a while, but now I ask myself, “Why do I need this?” I stack the tabs to save space on the tab bar, so expanding them only defeats the purpose of stacking them in the first place. Accessing the tabs is very simple if the Tab Previews are displayed — one can see at a glance which tab is which, without selecting any of them.

    [attachment=3581]TabStacks.png[/attachment]
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  • I have been using Opera 12 and Vivaldi in parallel the last few weeks and I miss the expand/collapse every time I am using Vivaldi.

    The purpose of stacking tabs is to save space, no argument there. But it also serves to just group RELATED tabs together, especially for later use. And I think its a useful thing, to improve tab accessibility for the stack that is "active".

    Of course its partially a matter of being used to something, but I don't think accessing the tabs via the tab preview is half as good/fast. Previews were already available in Opera and I almost never used them, just because the "tab stack of interest" was expanded anyway. Closing several tabs from a stack also becomes easier when the tabs are "visible" in the tab bar.

    The Vivaldi "tab lines" below the tab stack are somewhat cumbersome to focus, especially if there are more than a few.

    Regards,
    Rev



  • Also +1 for this feature.

    I also agree, that Tab Stacking is not used only for hiding Tabs, or to save space. I also used it a lot as logical grouping of expanded tabs. When we use browser these days with more tabs it's essential to have such feature. So you should consider how any user can use this feature. Don't try to think that some workaround is the best way. And stating that it only takes some another click, that for me is just another work for clicking monkey. Try to think in productive way, and the bast way that can be achieved. I mean, sure we can wait for improvements, if we know it's on the way. But stating, that we should simply accept current state or adapt is meaningless. And I guess even anti-progressive.

    I understood current Vivaldi implementation as just kick-starter of this feature. To add this, so it could be as an example, what Vivaldi want to achieve, and what way it has chosen. But I still see it as more "marketing/show", less productive feature.

    There is need to add few things to make it productive like:

    • expand/collapse
    • naming/coloring of groups
    • move tabs in preview
    • scroll-bars in preview
    • drag&drop inside preview of more tabs
    • ….

    Then we can call it great feature. Something innovative, like good old Opera was.



  • @stealth789:

    Don't try to think that some workaround is the best way. And stating that it only takes some another click, that for me is just another work for clicking monkey.

    I don't see it as a workaround. I see it as a more efficient way of working. Expanding/contracting tabs is what takes the extra clicks. To focus another tab in an expanded stack you have to click anyway, so why not click on a tab preview instead of on a Tab?

    My original reason for stacking tabs in Opera 12 was because I wanted to pin some tabs and stacking them was the only way to stop them collapsing. One tab title for the active tab in a stack is all I needed to identify the group without renaming it.

    Sometimes, less is more, and I think this is a case where that is true. Users with lots of tabs are asking for multiple rows/columns of tabs. This only encourages clutter and waste of screen real-estate. Tab-stacking save space and clicks if you learn how to use it. If you have a large monitor and large tab stacks, the Ctrl F6 and F7 shortcuts may be useful. Play with it and see if that helps to work with a group of related tabs.

    Moving tabs within a stack would be a useful improvement. Scroll bars in tab previews, naming, and colouring of stacks are good example of what I call “Creeping sophistication” — a classic mistake that ruins plenty of software.



  • It really all depends on what type of task you do. You still use only subjective point of view. Let's say I need to work on more pages, from different groups. So sure first I need to expand Stack. But it's only 1 click per group once. Then I need to identify group first, then select specific Tab of that group. And repeat this task. Then I can do it much faster with expanded logically connected Tabs. And reducing clicking and mouse moving to direct hit of specific tab. Sure even here is workaroud, to use more Vivaldi windows, and other approach, that simply will be used as workaround. But if such feature is optional it is simply win win scenario.

    And really maybe sometimes too little is just too little. There's no simple paradigm or generalization of all type of processes. I met with some "improvements" that are focused on simplifying things. And a lot of people just realized, that this so called simplicity is costing multiples of time to do tasks. Simply said, not everything is just simple as 1 + 1.

    Also another thing. Human brain can distinguish colors much much faster than text. Sure there's a way to fix Stack position, and use it this way all the time. But then any change would cost an extra time to adapt. With colors it's much variable.

    And again, if this is optional, you can even call it "Creeping" or see it as too much sophisticated. I really don't care, and it's your choice. You just don't need to use it. It's simple as that. But for many it's much easier. You simply won't lose, and some can gain. So where's problem with that?

    And I call classic mistake to think, that all people are the same, so I should make product that suits my need, not users. I see a lot as analysts that are designing product, without communication with end user. And then they wonder, why is product disaster, and useless. I don't think Vivaldi is the same. I just want to point out, that there are much more than 1 approach to work process. Or with any software at all.



  • @Pesala:

    I don't see it as a workaround. I see it as a more efficient way of working. Expanding/contracting tabs is what takes the extra clicks. To focus another tab in an expanded stack you have to click anyway, so why not click on a tab preview instead of on a Tab?

    I disagree. Having to "hover" the tab stack to perform any relevant action is what takes extra time. The Opera way, you expand the stack once and can immediately identify and reorder, close or select any relevant tab. Using Vivaldi, you have to perform a "hover/wait/look up relevant tab" for each of those actions (assuming stack reordering would be implemented).
    Having the tabs visible in the tab bar also improves awareness of which tabs are currently available instead of requiring the preview-pop-up.
    Moving tabs between two stacks would also be cumbersome. In opera you can expand two stacks (and easily identify tabs) and drag/drop between them.

    @Pesala:

    Moving tabs within a stack would be a useful improvement. Scroll bars in tab previews, naming, and colouring of stacks are good example of what I call “Creeping sophistication” — a classic mistake that ruins plenty of software.

    I agree that it should be kept simple. Being able to order tabs within a stack is certainly useful. Naming goes to far, thats what Sessions are for IMO. Scrolling should not be required as well, having more than about 20 tabs per stack should be rare. Better shrink tab previews if required.



  • @Rev1.0:

    I disagree. Having to "hover" the tab stack to perform any relevant action is what takes extra time.

    In Vivavdi there is no delay — the tab previews show up instantly. You can have two stacks side by side giving you instant access to sixteen tabs with very little mouse movement. Try it for yourself and see. Opera is slow, and expanding/contracting tab stacks is slow — you have to hit a tiny toggle arrow, which is not in a fixed position.
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  • @Pesala:

    In Vivavdi there is no delay — the tab previews show up instantly.

    Granted, the pop-up delay is neglible. But thats not really the point. Ignoring the "wait", anything else I pointed out in that paragraph still stands as an argument.

    @Pesala:

    You can have two stacks side by side giving you instant access to ten tabs with very little mouse movement.

    With expanded stacks, you potentially do not need any mouse movement at all, except for the initial expand click.

    @Pesala:

    expanding/contracting tab stacks is slow — you have to hit a tiny toggle arrow, which is not in a fixed position.

    If you name this as an argument against opera stacks, you really have to hate clicking the small bars from Vivaldi stacks. The expand arrow from Opera is not much smaller than other common control icons.

    I know its hard to argue about stuff like this, but I hope its constructive feedback for the developers. In the end we all want Vivaldi to get as good as possible ;)



  • I also agree, that Opera speed is not relevant argument here. We should compare this as an possible option in current Vivaldi implementation. Because we can argue against somethig that is worse in any time. But it's not progressive.

    But to example of this 2 approaches to do same action. Opening of stack(expand) is only one time action. No repeating action. I guess we have scenario with lets say Stack A with 2 tabs A1 and A2. And we open another Stack B with tabs B1 and B2. So for now, only 2 clicks are needed to make it expand. And now action to move lets say "A1 -> B2" is much faster in expanded scenario agains scenario "Hover A -> Focus A1 -> Hover B -> Focus B2". And in your process there is need to repeat action to move betweed tabs many times. Also if you add few more Stacks or Tabs or need to more specific steps, complexity and time consumption is increasing in Hover scenario.

    Also it's kind of argument of chaos theory against systematic work.



  • @Rev1.0:

    If you name this as an argument against opera stacks, you really have to hate clicking the small bars from Vivaldi stacks.

    You don't need to use those at all. The Tab Previews can be used to visually identify and select tabs within the stack. If we could drag the previews to reorder the tabs, or drag tabs to another stack, there is no need to expand the tab stack. Just ask yourself, which of these makes it easier to identify and select the right tab?

    [attachment=3585]Tabs.png[/attachment]

    [attachment=3586]Previews.png[/attachment]
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    ,



  • @Pesala:

    @Rev1.0:

    If you name this as an argument against opera stacks, you really have to hate clicking the small bars from Vivaldi stacks.

    You don't need to use those at all.

    That just supports my point. The bars are useless compared to having an expanded stack showing the tab titles, not needing the stack preview.

    @Pesala:

    Just ask yourself, which of these makes it easier to identify and select the right tab?

    [attachment=3585]Tabs.png[/attachment]

    This on by far! The tab title provides a clean description. Its irritating to look at scaled down and hard to make out content from the stack preview images. I know you could ignore those and only look at the tab bar titles, but thats what you would get from an extended stack anyway and still requires the additional "hover" step. If you do not agree, you just seem to have a different preference, lets leave it at that.


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