No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.

[Catweazle]

@anonysubscribe , ethical behavior begins with respect for the user. On the web there are other possibilities of doing business than treating the user as merchandise, Vivaldi is an example of this.

[code3]

@jane-n How will you make sure that FloC turned off is not used for fingerprinting? Empty cohort? I would think empty cohort would work, but maybe the amount of users are too small...

[code3]

@mossman You can see it in the developer console. Do a duck duck go search and there will be a note in the console that Vivaldi does not know of this header.

[dude99]

The major problem we are facing is currently GC have over 2/3 of global browser market share, so even if everyone else block floC, it will be just a minor lost to advertisers. Eventually, advertisers can still force this on everyone by demand floC to become mandatory for all websites they sponsoring (just like Youtube). And G will definitely help 'em to enforce this via Google Ads. Then, it will be either get floCed or get lost situation for the rest of the us.

Remember when everyone keep complaining about a lot of websites doesn't work properly in all browsers other than IE6 & Firefox? And then everyone just put all the blame on these browser makers & demand 'em to fix the "problem" repeatedly? This is going to be our future if floC allow to continue, & the only way for Chromium based browser to fix this is enabled floC.

Another solution would be hopefully EU will slap an anti-trust on Google for using monopoly in ads market to strangle the web browser market. Oh, don't bother to rely on US for this, cuz Biden is totally in bed with G since day one... I won't be surprise if he abuse his executive power to force this on all US Internet user because of "Net Neutrality". LOL

[Komposten]

@dude99 said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

so even if everyone else block floC, it will be just a minor lost to advertisers.

The sad thing about this is that there are several (smaller) companies that have switched from personalised advertising to contextual advertising and seen increased advertising revenue, suggesting that contextual ads might be more effective. If this is true also on the bigger scale, then it suddenly makes personalised ads even worse than they already are: Why use a less optimal advertising technique, unless it provides another source of revenue (say, trade in personal information) that's large enough to cover the loss in ad revenue and the cost of the personalisation technology?

[LorenAmelang]

@code3 said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

@mossman You can see it in the developer console. Do a duck duck go search and there will be a note in the console that Vivaldi does not know of this header.

I see:

Failed to load resource: net::ERR_BLOCKED_BY_CLIENT  /t.js?q=floc&t=D&l=wt-wt&s=0&ct=US&ss_mkt=us&p_ent=&ex=-1&cdrexp=b&biaexp=b&msvrtexp=b:1 

That looks like Vivaldi blocking the DDG page from loading some bit of FLoC... But why is the DDG page even requesting it?

Oh... Looking in the Head:

<style class="darkreader darkreader--root-vars" media="screen"></style>
  <script type="text/javascript" async="" src="/t.js?q=floc&amp;t=D&amp;l=wt-wt&amp;s=0&amp;ct=US&amp;ss_mkt=us&amp;p_ent=&amp;ex=-1&amp;cdrexp=b&amp;biaexp=b&amp;msvrtexp=b"></script>

So extensions can include FLoC bits into a page intended to ignore them?

Error with Permissions-Policy header: Unrecognized feature: 'interest-cohort'.

So the DDG page has the "Permissions-Policy: interest-cohort=()" header, and Vivaldi ignores it? I guess that's more private than returning '0'?

Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 404 ()  www.floc.com.ico:1

That seems to say Vivaldi asked FLoC for something they don't have. But why is Vivaldi requesting it? Maybe because of Dark Reader? But Dark Reader is also active on this Forum page, where I see none of those. So with no header or FLoC calls in the Forum page, nothing for Dark Reader to request?

I've probably misinterpreted all of this... But I'd like to understand before I add that header to my website!

[Komposten]

@LorenAmelang said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

I see:

Failed to load resource: net::ERR_BLOCKED_BY_CLIENT  /t.js?q=floc&t=D&l=wt-wt&s=0&ct=US&ss_mkt=us&p_ent=&ex=-1&cdrexp=b&biaexp=b&msvrtexp=b:1 

I searched for "cake" on DuckDuckGo and got a similar error but with "cake" instead of "floc", so it seems like some standard DDG script thing based on your search phrase.

GET https://duckduckgo.com/t.js?q=cake&t=D&l=us-en&s=0&dl=en&ct=SE&ss_mkt=us&p_ent=&ex=-1&cdrexp=b&biaexp=b&msvrtexp=b net::ERR_BLOCKED_BY_CLIENT

Error with Permissions-Policy header: Unrecognized feature: 'interest-cohort'.

So the DDG page has the "Permissions-Policy: interest-cohort=()" header, and Vivaldi ignores it? I guess that's more private than returning '0'?

It seems like Vivaldi doesn't even recognise this header, and I guess that is because Vivaldi has disabled FLoC.

Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 404 ()  www.floc.com.ico:1

That seems to say Vivaldi asked FLoC for something they don't have. But why is Vivaldi requesting it?

If I were to guess, you searched for "floc". DDG shows website favicons among the results so it tried to get the favicon for the website floc.com (one of the search results) but failed with a 404.

---

(Oh, and I'm not using Dark Reader, by the way)

[Pathduck]

@Komposten I guess the poor web admins at the Farm Labor Organizing Committee are going "what are all these requests coming in from search engines all of a sudden!??"

[Komposten]

@Pathduck Hahaha, I didn't even glance at the page so I completely missed that it wasn't FLoC-related.

[code3]

@dude99 said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

Eventually, advertisers can still force this on everyone by demand floC to become mandatory for all websites they sponsoring (just like Youtube).

Opt outs are required by law.

[Catweazle]

@code3 , this in any case will happen in pages with European regulations, but in the rest of the world it would not be so sure.
Anyway, it is best to get as far as possible from the influence of Google, although in some services it is really difficult, for example YouTube does not have an alternative that offers this content that it has, but you can use Front-Ends like Invidious or Desktop clients like Freetube, who hit trackers with the door in their noses.
Instead of GMaps you can use Open StreetMap, but StreetView? I have not found any valid alternative yet
The same with some other services out there.
Time the developers and FOSS Communities scramble to create the missing valid alternatives.

And Vivaldi still has Google Image search in the context menu, which also irritates me a bit.

[LorenAmelang]

@Komposten Duh! Thank you for pointing out how I contaminated my tests...

I wonder if interest-cohort=() really does put you in a null cohort, or if it will come to be recognized as a cohort of privacy fanatics?

https://github.com/WICG/floc/blob/main/README.md
Exploring that I see that what I read here as "Permissions-Policy: interest-cohort=()" is not the "equals zero" it absolutely looks like on my (Windows scaled) screen, but "equals leftParen space rightParen". So it should be taken as null rather than zero. But what third-party .js does with it is anyone's guess.

https://github.com/WICG/floc/issues/61
A browser extension can inject javascript into pages that the user visits and therefore read the value. An extension could also overwrite the document.interestCohort() API and return a different value.

https://github.com/WICG/floc/issues/33
Issue #61 points out that a browser extension will be able to obtain the user's cohort by injecting a script that calls interestCohort. There are legit reasons for an extension to be able to get the cohort (see #17). However an extension might inject such a script into a page that does not already call interestCohort and opt the page into FLoC training.

What I'm missing is how this interestCohort on a particular page relates to the eventual interestCohort into which the visitor is placed. I suppose it is handled by some opaque algorithm? Would it really look at a single number rather than the actual content of the page?

[code3]

@Catweazle Yeah, but they often spread to other parts of the world. And even if Google puts up a fight about opt-out, it would be trivial to put V users in empty cohort, which I doubt G will mess with.
I do use privacy redirect, you could look at mapbox for independent street view.

[Shagohod660]

Just installed Vivaldi. Being based off of Chromium but having a customizable UI is what I wanted. The tab stacking and tab tile are my favorite features.

[mi1400]

chrome android doesn't want to show tab count above 99 (instead smiley), it doesn't (without debug/hacks) want to let u export android tabs, no bloat cleaning options (or sdmaid etc access) except clearing to blank zero, no 'share' option in pop-up of long pressing urls, youtube's stats for nerds cannot be enabled permanently if i want to save/worship their career related ad videos.. but still they want to shove such crap down our throats.. dear Google plz livk daily ur own "dont be evil" jargon.. huh

[dude99]

@Komposten said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

Why use a less optimal advertising technique, unless it provides another source of revenue (say, trade in personal information) that's large enough to cover the loss in ad revenue and the cost of the personalisation technology?

1. China, remember the dragonfly thingy Google try to made? FloC would be the ultimate wet dream for CCP. LOL

2. Control. Yes, Google are not satisfied with just monetize you with Ads, they want to know all about you & then offer your subconscious to the highest bidder. Oh, wait. They already doing that...

3. The Great Reset. Whatever you believe it really is, it will involve large amount of personal data to become a reality. And what's better way to make it possible than turning everyone web browser into a malware that send all personal data to whoever wanted it by default?

[dude99]

@code3 said in No, Google! Vivaldi users will not get FloC’ed.:

Opt outs are required by law.

Sure. If you want to access all website, then get floC. Else you can opt out & stare at a lot of loading screen or a broken mess that plaster with warning "Please enabled floC for complete experience."

This will be like "Your inferior lousy browser are not supported, upgrade to G Chrome now!" ads that appear all over the Internet. /s

[Catweazle]

@code3 , yes, Mapbox has something like the Streetview, but it's for Android or car navis, apart it's paid, the free version is very limited compared to maps. I don't see it as a real alternative.
I also have Privacy Redirect, but half the time the corresponding public instances of the alternatives do not work, this is the problem with self hosted applications, when you do not do it yourself, then it depends that the one that has hosted it is also online.
@dude99 , this danger really exists, but I think, as it is said here, where there is a law, there is also a trap. Not so long ago when Vivaldi still appeared in the UA string, we had precisely this message often on screen, so the Vivaldi Team sacrificed the name in the UA string and since then we have not had this problem again. I'm sure there's a restriction on the FLoC, there'll also be people pulling countermeasures to trap it.

[dude99]

@Catweazle

Not so long ago when Vivaldi still appeared in the UA string, we had precisely this message often on screen, so the Vivaldi Team sacrificed the name in the UA string and since then we have not had this problem again.

So now Vivaldi have 0% visible global market share?
Smells like bullying & stifle of competition to me, & this is extremely bad for Vivaldi in long run, because they are simply turning away from the problem by sacrificing their growing potential. But I guess Vivaldi have no choice but to put up with this bullying since Google is one of their source of income...

I'm sure there's a restriction on the FLoC, there'll also be people pulling countermeasures to trap it.

Cat & mouse game, malicious innovation begat never ending of annoyance & timewaster. This will probably end up like popup window, notification, Do not track, & 3rd party cookies that bloating "modern" browser with obsolete features no one wanted.

UBlock Origin should become a default extension for all modern browser before Google kill it with manifest v3. It took so long for adblocker to be integrated into Vivaldi, I fear FLoC will cause even greater damage if no one dare to KILL it before it spread it's tentacles to everywhere.

[Catweazle]

@dude99 , yes, obviously we did not like the decision to remove V from the UA, but even so V is taken into account in the world and, despite currently having only a market share of few percentages, it is often mentioned together with the greats of the market, Chrome, FF, Opera and Safari , much more than others that have a greater diffusion.
Apart from sacrificing the Vivaldi name at the UA for the benefit of users, it says a lot about the philosophy of this company to put the user's interests before their own and is one of the reasons why I fully support them, not only for a unique browser.