V has no chance of being most peoples browser unless Developers fix speed & stability issues.



  • I posted the following 2 posts in the All Versions area of this Forum, but I feel it is important to also post this in the Windows Forum so that maybe, maybe, some Vivaldi developer and or manager will read it and if they actually care about the serious performance issues that Vivaldi has always had , will prioritize fixing the issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On my three year old laptop, an Intel i3 with Windows 7, Vivaldi continues to be super, super slow and very buggy. The latest build, 1.0.233.3, is back to being very buggy and super super slow (a couple of builds ago I thought I had noticed a general improvement to just somewhat buggy and very slow from super super slow), Build 1.0.233.3 seems to hang with Windows 7 screensaver . Heaven help me if I have more than 20 tabs open, within a couple of hours using it Vivaldi will almost grind to a halt, switching between tabs will take 1 to 10 minutes and it even takes 15 to 30 minutes to close Vivaldi in that state. Bye the way on my LG G2 Android phone, using Chrome, I can switch instantly between over 60 open TABS, yes 60, so previously justification by someone else on this forum of my being unreasonable in have many tabs open or of not having an SSD or more than 4 GB in my laptop are just plain defensiveness and not grounded in reality. Based on the versions I have been using, at this rate, I see no hope for use of Vivaldi by me on a constant basis, nor do I see much hope for use by most everyone else (Except for some developers and users with $2000 + laptops or fast desktops) ... AGAIN I ASK VIVALDI TEAM TO START TAKING SERIOUSLY, AND TO START ADDRESSING NOW, NOT LATER, THE ISSUES OF IMPROVING MEMORY UTILIZATION, LOADING SPEED, TAB SWITCHING AND CLOSING SPEED, IMPROVE SPEED WHEN HAVE MANY TABS OPEN, ALLOW VIVALDI TO NOT HANG OR CRASH WHEN WINDOWS SCREENSAVER COMES ON OR WHEN LAPTOP COMES OUT OF HIBERNATION. What is stopping you from using V all the time? Today 17:46 #32310 Posts:8 smile2day Additional bug noticed with build 1.0.233.3 (may have been in build before that also) : After doing a find text in page, sometimes shrinks screen too much, and I can no longer pinch to resize screen on my touchpad on my Samsung laptop. So looks like Vivaldi interferes with the Samsung ELAN Pointer and/or Windows mouse software / drivers.



  • It's Alpha software. Optimisation for speed will come later.

    Shouting and nagging is just rude. Educate yourself by reading a few blog posts or forum threads.

    Christoph142 5 days ago
    We certainly will look into this, but speed improvements aren't part of an alpha phase.



  • This software is far from finished. I've noticed good improvements in the stability.
    The download speed of websites still needs to be fixed. A few more features are need before it is a fully functional browser.



  • It wasn't that long ago when none of us knew for sure there was going to be a Vivaldi browser. When it arrived we had the option to download it, watch it develop and point out bugs. If it ain't ready for everybody yet it ain't ready, I'm pretty sure most of us are waiting for something so at this stage waiting is to be expected.



  • I am not shouting or nagging. I guess you are one of those people who thinks that All Capital letters should never be used ( I used CAPS for emphasis for decades before the Web, so I guess old habits are hard to break).

    I am not trying to be rude, nor am I uneducated about software "optimization" , and I have read the other posts / threads about "optimisation". I am only trying to bring up the need for prioritization of fixing performance issues and general slowness of V before it is too late. V problem with performance soon will become one that will require a lot more than "optimisation".

    Your, and Christoph142 defending Vivaldi's current performance issues by saying V is only following standard development phases will not help to ensure that a product with decent features and decent performance will be released.
    Having worked in major corporate IT environments for almost 30 years, I know all too well the pitfalls of using the "standard development phases" as a defense.
    The fact is I have seen too many very laborious, expensive in time and money, software product efforts go way over budget ( 3 to 10 times the original estimate in time / money / resources ) and result in software that performed very poorly and/or was very buggy. Supposedly they all used (or said they used) standard development phases. Either these efforts did not really use good standard development phases and/or the implementation of those phases was poor, and/or maybe blind following of standard development phases may not work in all cases and/or at all times.

    The fact remains that V has a big problem with performance currently, and that is the biggest indicator of its future performance.
    So, I would hate to think that performance will be the stone that will trip up V acceptance by the public.

    I think back to early 1990s when Lotus finally saw Windows as the future and they created a version of their Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet software (which was #1 back then) to run on Windows instead of just DOS. The Windows version was feature rich and extremely customizable. It was much better, in terms of features and customizability than its main competitor Excel (and two additional minor competitors). However, poor performance was its major flaw, and that flaw (along with it being released too late in the game of Windows) caused it to fail in the marketplace and so afterwards did Lotus.

    V looks like it will be feature rich, and very customizable, but, considering it has at least three major competitors (and many minor ones) if it does not have performance of a caliber equivalent to the caliber of its features and customizability, it will fail when released, and then it will be way too late to massively improve performance.


  • Moderator

    Vivaldi does not want to be most people's browser.

    Vivaldi, initially at least, is being designed for a niche market - "Friends of Jon" - ie, users who have never been happy with a browser since the demise of Opera 12. It is being developed by a team with over 20 years experience in making browsers the best they can be (led by the surviving co-founder of Opera ASA). It is NOT meant (at this stage, at least, and possibly forever) to compete with Firefox, Edge, Chrome, Chromium, Opera, SeaMonkey, Safari, etc. It is meant to be for the several million people who basically just wanted Opera 12 not to die. Its appeal may very well grow beyond that. We'll see.

    Hence, it will have an integrated email client, a basically infinitely customizable UI, built in features like side tabs, tab stacking, tab tiling, visual tabs, movable toolbars, panels, notes, etc. that NO OTHER browser has without adding extensions and creating process bloat.

    It is not even a browser yet - and certainly not a finished internet suite. It does not really support extensions, doesn't have private browsing, has a barely-functional bookmarking system, etc. It will be optimized as and when appropriate, according to the guys who do this for a living. We are free to push them, cajole them, and complain of things that make our own individual lives hard. The feedback helps inform the development process and, even when ill-tempered, is appreciated by the developers and by Jon.

    We are also free to embarrass ourselves by making broad pronouncements of universal fact smacking of omniscience, based upon our own personal experience with our one or two or three idiosyncratic machines and our feelings of knowing more about everyone's business than they themselves know. It's the internet. We can say and do whatever we want. The credibility of any given speaker will be measured by readers within the context of what they already know after up to seven months' exposure to the product, and having read up to some fifty thousand or so posts and comments on the forums and the blog. People who come in the door knowing more about the project than those closest to it will receive the appropriate amount of attention and regard. Isn't the internet lovely?



  • @smile2day:

    I think back to early 1990s when Lotus finally saw Windows as the future and they created a version of their Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet software (which was #1 back then) to run on Windows instead of just DOS.

    You are comparing a finished product with something that has not been released yet. If you worked in IT for that long, you should know that it's not efficient to optimize a product until it's feature complete.



  • I am very happy to see that there is no itention to make the developing process hush hush just to satisfy users as smile2day. As I see it it doesn't make much sense to build a roof if you didn't even finish the first story of a house. Point is, the performance issue isn't ignored, it was already annoucend when there will be improvements to that, around the start of the beta phase.
    So Would you instead of a more and more stable browser rather have one thats the fastest ever seen but crashes every time you try to do something?
    I can't imagine that you would be a happy user



  • I totally agree. Add to that the sometimes inablity of browser to open multiple pages consistentenly from settings there will be frustration.
    (Added) I will watch and wait as the real work is being done by the experts in this field. Guess I get impatient sometimes..

    But that said, keep plugging away. Thanks.



  • @Sajadi:

    So to sum this up… another request that Vivaldi will be one of these already countless numbers of minimalist simplistic browsers.

    Vivaldi is not designed in the first place to attract that kind of user group, the main target user group are Power Users and Geeks.

    If that means that performance will be a bit slower as compared to minimalist and simplistic browsers then i am more than happy to accept that, because features are for me much more important.

    You summation does not add up, because it was based on misunderstanding and/or misreading of my post.
    I did NOT say, nor imply, anything about making Vivaldi minimalist or simplistic. You seem to be assuming that because I show concern for Vivaldi slowness and stability then I must not be a Power User and that I must want V to be minimalist or simplistic. Those are incorrect assumptions. I am a Power User (the jury is deadlocked on whether I am a Geek….after all I have not yet put an SSD in my Laptop). I want features as much as any other Power User, but many Power Users also want decent performance and stability otherwise they cannot easily make use of many of the features.



  • @Briarned:

    @smile2day:

    I think back to early 1990s when Lotus finally saw Windows as the future and they created a version of their Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet software (which was #1 back then) to run on Windows instead of just DOS.

    You are comparing a finished product with something that has not been released yet. If you worked in IT for that long, you should know that it's not efficient to optimize a product until it's feature complete.

    Well, yes, Lotus 1-2-3 for Windows was slow and was a released product, but then I am sure that it was even slower in beta.

    As for "not efficient to optimize a product until its's feature complete" …............well, V I think will have to make some decisions in this regards, since ...
    a) V may never be feature complete..........at least based on the number of, and requests for features, indicated in posts on this forum <smile>. At some point they will have to lock features set in.
    b) you focus on optimize when all features locked in, I focus on making sure performance is also always in mind during the process of adding features so that any necessary optimization at end is minimal and to prevent risk of ending up with a big bloated piece of code that no optimization can help with to any great extent.</smile>


  • Moderator

    And the Vivaldi development team's position on this is:

    "Christoph142 wrote:
    We certainly will look into this, but speed improvements aren't part of an alpha phase. […]
    […] Well, we will do some before beta, but as a preparation for it, not in the middle of an alpha. As I stated once before, there's no point in optimizing code that will change at a large scale or even get replaced completely later on. Wasted resources."

    And as I said in another thread:

    "Once the browser is substantially complete, optimizations will be welcomed and very much appreciated. In the meantime, minor adjustments under the hood which are not likely to run afoul of rapid development changes have been being made, and will continue to be made, I'm sure. Performance of the browser is already well ahead of the first Technical Preview and continues to improve."

    I think I'm kind of in tune with where the developers are going here. I agree with the approach they have touched upon. I think the point that really needs to be absorbed is that in alpha and pre-alpha stages, it's just being built - and it's a good ways from being built yet. Structural and design change decisions are arriving weekly. In Beta, I expect bug fixes and optimizations hand over fist. Then, more major changes leading up to the next major version, a new Beta stage, etc. - until, perhaps a year or two from now, we not only have a promising browser, but delivery on that promise - a feature-rich, fast, smooth, stable internet suite with more built-in options than Carter's had pills. Whether it can ever be as light on its feet as old Opera was, is strictly up to the wizardry of the innovators at Vivaldi. So far as I know, no one has produced a browser with a light footprint, on a Chromium engine. It seems almost impossible.



  • @Ayespy:

    Vivaldi does not want to be most people's browser.

    Vivaldi, initially at least, is being designed for a niche market - "Friends of Jon" - ie, users who have never been happy with a browser since the demise of Opera 12. It is being developed by a team with over 20 years experience in making browsers the best they can be (led by the surviving co-founder of Opera ASA). It is NOT meant (at this stage, at least, and possibly forever) to compete with Firefox, Edge, Chrome, Chromium, Opera, SeaMonkey, Safari, etc. It is meant to be for the several million people who basically just wanted Opera 12 not to die. Its appeal may very well grow beyond that. We'll see.

    Hence, it will have an integrated email client, a basically infinitely customizable UI, built in features like side tabs, tab stacking, tab tiling, visual tabs, movable toolbars, panels, notes, etc. that NO OTHER browser has without adding extensions and creating process bloat.

    It is not even a browser yet - and certainly not a finished internet suite. It does not really support extensions, doesn't have private browsing, has a barely-functional bookmarking system, etc. It will be optimized as and when appropriate, according to the guys who do this for a living. We are free to push them, cajole them, and complain of things that make our own individual lives hard. The feedback helps inform the development process and, even when ill-tempered, is appreciated by the developers and by Jon.

    We are also free to embarrass ourselves by making broad pronouncements of universal fact smacking of omniscience, based upon our own personal experience with our one or two or three idiosyncratic machines and our feelings of knowing more about everyone's business than they themselves know. It's the internet. We can say and do whatever we want. The credibility of any given speaker will be measured by readers within the context of what they already know after up to seven months' exposure to the product, and having read up to some fifty thousand or so posts and comments on the forums and the blog. People who come in the door knowing more about the project than those closest to it will receive the appropriate amount of attention and regard. Isn't the internet lovely?

    I disagree – Except for the problems with stability, it pretty much knocks the crap out of everything else out there.

    So far as I know, no one has produced a browser with a light footprint, on a Chromium engine. It seems almost impossible.

    Relative requirements for footprints are rapidly moving targets. Hardware, at this point, is actually outpacing (most user) software. Blink is heavier than it's original base, WebKit. Blink and WebKit are probably both heavier than Presto, but Presto was too much to maintain. It's also been years since Presto, and at least a year? now since Blink forked from WebKit. The web hasn't become easier to parse and operate, and it never will. The things we ask of it will never decrease.

    It seems like Vivaldi has a good working relationship with the Blink engine, and are able to rapidly incorporate updates to Blink, which is a very good thing – Blink is an extremely fast moving target, and if you don't do your integration with it in a very well planned way, you're going to end up either stuck on an old release, or re-doing all your custom code over and over. Neither is a desired situation, usually.


  • Moderator

    It's my default browser because, for MY needs, it's already the best offering out there. But then, I don't need extensions, private browsing, warp speed, gaming, hours of video in every format from every source, etc. I need a browser that physically sets up to accommodate my needs, and Vivaldi does so more than any other browser (not surprisingly, since my work habits developed around old Opera12 & prior versions).

    Still, I'm aware of weaknesses and gaps that I fully expect to see remedied at a pretty rapid development pace. I'm also aware that making a nimble browser on top of Blink is a challenge - one that I hope (maybe trust?) Vivaldi developers are up to.



  • Well I can agree that recently browser went from fuzzy little issues to static.
    Bad pun aside, it's tiresome to wait between 20 seconds to few minutes (unless the process ends in continuous loop-to-be-terminated) to a simple and rather light webpage to load. Some heavier websites just crash the browser and nowadays the only alternative for most sites is to work as mobile version which can't be forced on Vivaldi.

    Sure, those who casually use V to see that it still works these issues might be silly and pointing them out might be rude but for those who decided to fully switch from general chromium wars browsers to niche one reminding opera 12 current experience is rather cringy, tormenting, annoying and it looks more like a trial of patience.

    Seriously after how bad this browser handles the sole purpose it's made for I probably just switch back to chromium and just forget about it (and I'm not the only one I guess).
    Sure it's hard to fill a void when the niche is group of foiled, grumpy and angry nerds but it's not like the devs decided to start a projects fur teh lulz either and gonna stop it half-baked.

    Anyways, any improvement in the I/O would be appreciated.



  • @keik:


    Seriously after how bad this browser handles the sole purpose it's made for I probably just switch back to chromium and just forget about it (and I'm not the only one I guess).
    ...

    First: Even in a thread with such a provoking title like '…has no chance ..." the posts didn't drift into sole torrents of hatred. I can't praise enough all the participants here for letting live the different point of view!

    My hardware was never kind of high end and I'm using Vivaldi on four different operating systems. May be I'm around in the wrong part of the web but for me the browser is just working. The last crash is such a long time ago, I can't even remember it. Some pages are needing a little more time to load but here I'm talking about a few seconds.

    Could someone point out the web pages Vivaldi can't handle?



  • @Ayespy:

    Vivaldi does not want to be most people's browser.

    Vivaldi, initially at least, is being designed for a niche market - "Friends of Jon" - ie, users who have never been happy with a browser since the demise of Opera 12. It is being developed by a team with over 20 years experience in making browsers the best they can be (led by the surviving co-founder of Opera ASA). It is NOT meant (at this stage, at least, and possibly forever) to compete with Firefox, Edge, Chrome, Chromium, Opera, SeaMonkey, Safari, etc. It is meant to be for the several million people who basically just wanted Opera 12 not to die. Its appeal may very well grow beyond that. We'll see.

    Hence, it will have an integrated email client, a basically infinitely customizable UI, built in features like side tabs, tab stacking, tab tiling, visual tabs, movable toolbars, panels, notes, etc. that NO OTHER browser has without adding extensions and creating process bloat.

    It is not even a browser yet - and certainly not a finished internet suite. It does not really support extensions, doesn't have private browsing, has a barely-functional bookmarking system, etc. It will be optimized as and when appropriate, according to the guys who do this for a living. We are free to push them, cajole them, and complain of things that make our own individual lives hard. The feedback helps inform the development process and, even when ill-tempered, is appreciated by the developers and by Jon.

    We are also free to embarrass ourselves by making broad pronouncements of universal fact smacking of omniscience, based upon our own personal experience with our one or two or three idiosyncratic machines and our feelings of knowing more about everyone's business than they themselves know. It's the internet. We can say and do whatever we want. The credibility of any given speaker will be measured by readers within the context of what they already know after up to seven months' exposure to the product, and having read up to some fifty thousand or so posts and comments on the forums and the blog. People who come in the door knowing more about the project than those closest to it will receive the appropriate amount of attention and regard. Isn't the internet lovely?

    Up until the last paragraph, your response contained much interesting information and some considered opinions regarding the Vivaldi product and its development. However in the last paragraph instead of focusing on Vivaldi or its development / future you have instead focused on me, personally. Your quise is rather transparent. You start out with the friendly-like "we" grammatical tense, then, realizing you don't want us in the same boat since you are about to sink it, you quickly switch to using a pontifical manner and the "People" tense to give you cover for your comments demeaning me. You do me, the Vivaldi forum, and yourself a great disservice when you demean a member instead of focusing your comments solely on the product. The internet IS a lovely place (I am not being sarcastic), and that is why I hope Vivaldi will be of great use to however many people, it is just some people who sometimes act in a not so lovely manner, usually, on forums, when then stray from discussing technical things to instead belittle a fellow member.


  • Moderator

    Thank you for your trenchant analysis of my writing and my writing style. As is no doubt plain to you, neither I nor the Vivaldi development team, led by a dude who's pretty much acknowledged as both an authority and a visionary in his chosen field, would know how to proceed without your direction.

    I invite you to consider: that Vivaldi was probably worked on in at least some manner for perhaps a year before its first exposure in very rudimentary form to the public on Jan 27, with a clearly articulated mission statement. Since then, a small band of brothers has taken it miles down the path toward the completion of that mission, attracting along the way a good deal of interest and some 1.3 million unique downloads or so. A number of tech journals have been laudatory of the effort. Some of us have been here since the browser first saw daylight - some even before. You show up on Aug 3 and bestow upon us categorical pronouncements from your vast store of superior knowledge, concerning the danger that, by proceeding in the manner they have chosen, Vivaldi is in danger of failing to accomplish something it has not set out to do.

    You don't express yourself as a user with a certain machine and particular preferences, but as the guy who can put Vivaldi straight if its crew would just quit being so short-sighted. You don't even seem to have bothered to try to understand what the project was about, or how its authors view its current stage of development.

    I have to wonder how on earth you expected that to be received. Did you expect lights to go off across the Vivaldisphere and for heads to turn, jaws to gape and eyes to widen, "Why, of course! We've been going about this all wrong!" Or did you consider the possibility that the title of your topic, the stance taken in it, and your general tone and presumption of a "know best" position might actually be poorly received?

    If I sought to admonish (not just you, but others who have conducted themselves similarly as well), why surely you can understand from where that impulse arose? You seem to have appeared on the scene to tell us all what's what. You're allowed. And I'm allowed to hint at a modicum of folly in your approach. I can be just as didactic and presumptuous as you. Fair enough?

    So - hey - why don't you smile2day? It's all good fun.



  • After reading and thinking about all the replies and comments, I conclude that sll good things will come in time. I prefer developers to proceed slowly, cautiously, and with care (as has been the case) and will stick with it as my primary through the rough spots. Thanks V- team for all efforts. :) :) :lol:



  • @Guardrail68:

    After reading and thinking about all the replies and comments, I conclude that sll good things will come in time. I prefer developers to proceed slowly, cautiously, and with care. Thanks V- team for all efforts. :) :) :lol:

    Totally agree with you. I think users should not forget that these are just previews of vivaldi.And most developers never share their softwares at this stage, and if they share then it is only with very few people.
    Earlier snapshots of Vivaldi were unusable for me on old PC as they consumed 100% cpu but with last few snapshots it has become usable.There are some performance issues (like slow start up,website loading hangs for few seconds) which i believe will be solved very soon.
    Thanks vivaldi team for all efforts. :)


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