New Standard of Browsing? :-O



  • You all probably noticed the fuss they were making over there at Opera with the new R3 (or did you, guys, knew something substantial before about it?)

    For all those who wonder there's this blog post there: https://blogs.opera.com/desktop/2019/02/opera-r-3-developer/#disqus_thread

    I actually was very curious about what change there was coming bringing in the new standard of browsing? Would it be so great I would even consider the switch from Vivaldi again?

    Actually, what they were doing was giving a new design to Opera (again, you might say!) Some integration of the Bitcoin stuff, but nothing really new in terms of browsing the web. Nothing like Neon becoming prime time. Hardly anything so overwhelming to force anyone to move away from either Vivaldi or any other browser.

    I've always had a look on Opera, even when I were using Chrome or Firefox and Vivaldi now. But it seems to me, that there's no real strategy in their browser development. When they started implementing Ad-blocking, VPN and web panels it looked like some. But they've actually given up on these things really. Will implementation of Bitchain management in their Android and desktop offerings be the thing that should stand out. Although there's already Brave, I think.

    I'm glad to be on Vivaldi for now. Really really. But it's sad to see, that Opera seems to have given up to stay in the competition, even when they say, they don't.


  • Moderator

    Perhaps I'm being pedantic when I say this, but nothing is a "standard" unless you can get multiple people to agree to it.



  • That's the reason why I thought they'd more to offer than some major UI-changes but nothing new concerning the surfing itself.


  • Moderator

    @HealingCross rewriting the engine is a huge lift. There are not the personnel to do it. It is not merely a decision to "offer," but the practicality of actually delivering. I'm sorry if you're disappointed in the product. The team strives to offer a unique experience, and it totally makes the difference for me, but I recognize some may differ.



  • @Ayespy I always liked, what they were doing with Blink. Mostly, they made some good improvements. Opera often seemed like a better Chrome to me.
    But after using Vivaldi quite a bit now, I‘m not sure, what Opera is really after. Still I like the looks, But they were making announcements, that were telling a story about a new standard for webbrowsing. Well, I now know better, it was only marketing for some UI redesign, making Opera look like others too, but without adding real new functionality.
    Compared to Vivaldi they‘ve got the seemingly bigger team, but it‘s the latter, that‘s innovating and evolving featurewise.


  • Moderator

    @HealingCross It's true Opera has a bigger team - about ten times the size.



  • @Ayespy Opera also has the advantage that they have the basics already down – complete sync with mobile version for iOS and Android. This is just Opera trying to innovate and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally I think it's finally a nice effort. Although their blog post is a tiny bit embarrassing – mysterious dark version???? really? And the passage about minimalism that doesn't exclude functionality is just ambiguous and confusing. Opera should really try and find someone who can get the message across more clearly. Whoever wrote this clearly fails miserably.


  • Moderator

    @luetage Yes - they did have the advantage of essentially unlimited funding, a relatively huge team and a long head start (even if they did make a complete hash of sync when they first rolled it out). But they are engaged on a substantially different project from Vivaldi. Their aims and methods are quite different. As of today, it's not that meaningful to compare the two browsers, or their companies.



  • I'll just say one thing, I'm so glad that Vivaldi exists and reigns supreme, because the situation in Opera is disintegrating very very fast. It's degrading more and more to a fancy metrosexual Google Chrome clone no one will care about, which leads me to believe that in a year or two the chinese owners are going to shut it down.



  • Honestly, I think they care more about the mobile browser(s). Some of the changes in "R3" are decent; some still need work. The smaller speed dial icons are a waste in that they still only allow 6 per row - on my 1600x900 display it leaves too much empty space. The improvements to the dark theme are good, but they haven't gotten to some of it yet. Some of their other decisions are questionable at best, but there is certainly room for a minimalist browser. Not that Vivaldi (or old Opera) users would care for it, of course.

    But I do agree, "a new standard of browsing" it isn't. None of the changes make any difference to the act of browsing.



  • @sgunhouse The fundamental problem with Opera was and is that it doesn't and won't ever put the user in front and give him the option, it's a monolithic "take this - i know better" thing. They are doing circles in designing the Speed Dial for years, one release has the tiles small, the other big, the other rectangular, the other trimmed, the other transparent, the other small again, making their users mad, as one can see in their comments, it's an anecdote. Basic usable things fall victims to fashion design (see their SD lack of sidebar-toggle complaints and wallpapers) As for the dark theme, again it's "this is the best for you" where it's not. I 've downloaded that developer to see it myself and I find the dark-navy blue very tiresome to the eye after using it a while, the previous grey looked much more relaxed, though not that dark as I would like it to be, and here's where Vivaldi excels again. I've ditched Opera 3-4 years ago and never regreted it one day, would I be a user I would be mad (again) with their usual way of shoving things down my throat like their practices -together with their pathetic marketing narrative- have been all the time.


  • Vivaldi Translator

    Is there any more complete information about R3 anywhere?

    Asking because that blog post brings nothing new and noteworthy, in my opinion. You can theme Vivaldi so it looks very close to that (what they show in the blog post, that is) with just the basic theme functionality, and you can move buttons around using custom scripts.

    Of course, I'm basing this entirely on what's in that blog post, as I don't follow Opera nor have it installed.



  • There were points in the development of Old Opera, where I myself thought, that these features are really not necessary and you might get overwhelmed with the many options - even if you can ignore or even close them.
    New Opera in itself has a reasonable array of features, with their webpanels, battery-saving mode, VPN, intrinsic adblocking. It's a shame that they never had the market-share they deserved (be it in the golden times of old or nowadays). So I understand that they of course make announcements about their upcoming versions as shaking the world of browsing. So did Jon with every new version of Opera in the old days, didn't he? (Is he still swimming the Atlantic?)
    I just thought, that back then and even now they don't get the awareness that would be necessary to have a meaningful impact. And even when they wanted to go mainstream they stayed niche. Although as I mentioned their feature set is very sensible IMHO.
    To me it seemed they were publishing something like a streamlined Neon, but they didn't. It's more of the same, just cosmetics, in the end.
    Nevertheless I hold it an viable option next to Chrome or Firefox. The one thing that keeps me using it actually is their Chinese ownership. With all these changes Opera is only a product now, nothing with the ring of rebellion or innovation.
    Like many others I've come to Vivaldi. I don't think it's perfect. But it certainly is an alternative to the biggest beasts. I'm still impressed by its many options and features, not overwhelming so far. But of course there's also the possibility to be overfeatured. I wouldn't bother, if they stopped developing an e-mail-client and concentrate on the core features.
    I clearly see some kind of vision behind it. And that's what I'm missing with Opera. It's going somewhere, but I don't see where.
    Otherwise even Vivaldi has to pay the payrolls of their developers and their staff. Will they survive and keep pace?


  • Vivaldi Ambassador

    I abandoned Opera around ver. 20(?) so I am not familiar with what they've done in the last few years except I recently read they've added a bitcoin wallet to the browser.
    Personally I'll stay with V.
    Just seems like a good place to be (for me anyway).



  • Well, I think Vivaldi is fun ... more like the old Opera than other browsers, but I find the current Opera sometimes more appealing than Vivaldi for the following reasons:

    -seems lighter on resources and a bit more responsive/quick than even Chrome, Firefox, and Vivaldi
    -best tab preview of any browser - I can check on the tab/page's content simply by hovering over the tab
    -full-screen is truly full-screen and allows me access to both open tabs and closed tabs very nicely via Ctrl-M; I can also access Facebook Messenger easily while in full-screen mode by Ctrl-Shift-M.
    -keyboard shortcuts for extensions work in full-screen mode perfectly (unlike Vivaldi); Firefox has limited keyboard shortcuts for extensions
    -does not tap-out my laptop battery as quickly as other browsers
    -Instant Search (Alt-Space) works terrifically and is a great way to access bookmarks even in full-screen mode
    -customizable keyboard shortcuts (not quite as good as Vivaldi in this respect, but still very good)
    -built-in snapshot (Ctrl-Shift-5) is very nice
    -speed dial is better and snappier than other browsers
    -Personal News integration with AI news/categories is innovative and creative and intriguing
    -Facebook Messenger in the pinned sidebar is very nice; I like it better than Vivaldi's implementation. Other browsers simply don't have it. (request: Twitter in this sidebar would be heavenly!)
    -address bar input seems to predict what I am looking for better than other browsers
    -it is more appealing to the eyes than other browsers. I like the bright wallpapers in Light mode very much.
    -MyFlow with Opera Touch on phone is excellent
    -neat little features other browsers do not have like tap on tab to take you to top of page/tap again to take you back to where you were on the page
    -neat little features like mouse gestures that work and don't overwhelm with too many choices
    -the best tab management of any browser I've found to be able to simply go back and forth between two tabs quickly and easily. I use Ctrl-tab for this.
    -built-in ad-blocking capability (I assume this is more resource efficient than relying on extensions for this)
    -neat little features other browsers do not have like the ability to close a tab with Alt-mouseclick
    -neat little features other browsers do not have like the ability to select multiple tabs and then right-click them to copy all their page addresses (URL's)
    -neat little features like the ability to select multiple tabs and then right-click them to save them all to a Speed Dial folder

    One more advantage I see with Opera over some other browsers is the very nice layout for extensions:
    -Enabled
    -Disabled
    -Updates
    -Under Development

    It has helped me locate one or more extensions in the past more quickly than I would have located them without such a nice breakdown.

    Finally, Opera has built-in Cryptocurrency Mining Protection and Malware Blocking

    Other browsers force one to research/search for such protection via extensions. I know Opera has got me covered for this already, so it is one less headache/concern for me. I have enough headaches/concerns, already. 🙂

    As for Opera's R3, it is still in development and does not seem all that revolutionary to me compared to Opera's latest stable version of 58. 🙂



  • @treego Right so. From a neutral perspective Opera seems like a reasonable approach which is somewhat between a full fledged version of a browser like Vivaldi and the rather barebones ones like Chrome or Firefox. I like them both anyway. It should also be said that Opera is even called first in this year‘s browser comparison at PC World right in front of the big boys.
    The one feature I miss from any browser apart from Vivaldi is the tab tiling. All others, that it offers, are covered in one or the other way with others, too. From my personal opinion browser settings are really neat in Vivaldi, it‘s a very clear structure. Personally I think, that it’s really messed up in Firefox, and Opera being somewhere in the middle.
    But what do you think about their Chinese ownership and privacy concerns, anyway?



  • @HealingCross said in New Standard of Browsing? 😮:

    But what do you think about their Chinese ownership and privacy concerns, anyway?

    I am sure the Chinese have better ways to spy on me if that is their intent outside of me using the niche browser, Opera.



  • I feel quite confident with the Vivaldi Browser, mostly because of the privacy reasons. I also read something similar on https://financepolice.com about it.

    Haven't been using Opera for a long time and this Chinese ownership thingy is also concerned.



  • @treego

    Well, I think Vivaldi is fun ... more like the old Opera than other browsers, but I find the current Opera sometimes more appealing than Vivaldi for the following reasons:

    It’s clear you haven’t fully explored the capabilities Vivaldi offers, because everything you mentioned Vivaldi does better and of course it does much more than that which is impossible to cover here.
    So let’s break it down as you did already

    seems lighter on resources and a bit more responsive/quick than even Chrome, Firefox, and Vivaldi

    which is subjective, don’t know about your system and how old It is but on my i7 Vivaldi is as fast as Opera, if faster.

    best tab preview of any browser - I can check on the tab/page's content simply by hovering over the tab

    not only exists in Vivaldi but comes with smaller and handier previews that don’t block your whole screen, which is the trusted way of Jon’s original Opera (Presto). Apart from that you can have permanent tab thumbnails placed to any monitor side to easily visually distinguish tabs, also an old Opera Presto feature that current Opera does not have.

    full-screen is truly full-screen and allows me access to both open tabs and closed tabs very nicely via Ctrl-M; I can also access Facebook Messenger easily while in full-screen mode by Ctrl-Shift-M.

    Truly full-screen is only Vivaldi. Because only in Vivaldi you can press F8 and bring up a hovering address bar to enter a url. In Opera you can only search. And search only with GOOGLE I thank you. Vivaldi again excels in everything fullscreen because you can hit F4 and have access to the web panel with which you can do anything. F2 brings up not only the list of the open tabs, but also the possibility to enter commands for further actions. You can shuffle through open tabs with the mouse too, which old Opera had but new doesn’t, holding the right mouse and scrolling, brings up the open tabs with previews. You can have of course access to any web panel item by binding a keyboard shortcut of your like to it. Not to speak about spatial nagivation ‘cause one can’t cover all. Not to speak about how you can't show your Bookmarks Bar in current Opera while fullscreen.

    Additionally you have lots of possibilities that new Opera does not offer, for example:

    • While being in fullscreen (F11) you can hit Ctrl+F2 which additionally shows the address and search bar. Not possible in Opera.

    • You can hit Ctrl+F11 show that you can see the title of the tab and have access to the Vivaldi menu to do things from there, an option that new Opera does not offer.

    does not tap-out my laptop battery as quickly as other browsers

    AFAIK it's work in progress for Vivaldi, but let's be honest here, no one sane moves around for hours without the charging unit and plugs are almost everywhere, 10 minutes more won't save you.

    Instant Search (Alt-Space) works terrifically and is a great way to access bookmarks even in full-screen mode

    as already written above, F2 is far superior, F4 brings you full control including bookmarks without leaving fullscreen

    customizable keyboard shortcuts (not quite as good as Vivaldi in this respect, but still very good)

    still very good compared to Chrome perhaps, but not in any way compared to Vivaldi. There's no keyboard shortcut for pinning tab, keyboard shortcut for duplicating tab was only added recently because of a user whining about it. In Vivaldi you can assign a keyboard shortcut for closing other tabs for example (let' say Ctrl+Shift+W to be affine with Ctrl+W). Boom, other tabs are closed instantly.

    built-in snapshot (Ctrl-Shift-5) is very nice

    Vivaldi’s built in snapshot gives you far more possibilities, you can assign a keyboard shortcut for it, and it can capture the whole webpage as well. It can’t add emojis if that’s your thing, sure.

    speed dial is better and snappier than other browsers

    subjective, you can have multiple Speed Dials in Vivaldi and customize it yourself to a much wider extent. In Opera Ctrl-clicking, or Middle-mouse click on Speed Dial folders does not work for example, which does it not better in any way.

    Personal News integration with AI news/categories is innovative and creative and intriguing

    Integrated RSS is in the works for quite some time, until it's ready there are beautiful RSS readers like Zebra RSS and similar. The one in new Opera exists only because old Opera Presto users that have already migrated here have whined about it for months, months and months, as they did for having Bookmarks while the same Opera you see with R3 insisted "Stash" is sufficient and Bookmarks is a thing of the past...As for AI news I can only comment with "..."

    Facebook Messenger in the pinned sidebar is very nice; I like it better than Vivaldi's implementation. Other browsers simply don't have it. (request: Twitter in this sidebar would be heavenly!)

    can’t comment on that as I don’t use social stuff, though Opera gets money from advertising that way, therefore you will get only what Opera wants you to have, while in Vivaldi you can add all those web-based messengers by yourself to the web panel.

    address bar input seems to predict what I am looking for better than other browsers

    suggestions is a search-engine feature and Opera's address bar is far inferior to Vivaldi's in terms of showing history items, bookmarks, number of items etc.

    it is more appealing to the eyes than other browsers. I like the bright wallpapers in Light mode very much.

    … you know you can customize themes and appearance to your like in Vivaldi right?

    MyFlow with Opera Touch on phone is excellent

    good for you, Vivaldi has Vivaldi Android in the works.

    neat little features other browsers do not have like tap on tab to take you to top of page/tap again to take you back to where you were on the page

    that’s a “feature” that new Opera copied from Yandex browser, Vivaldi didn’t need to have it as it was already possible by binding a mouse gesture for it (for example right-click and UP) which is far superior as it works from any place in the webpage and you don’t have to travel your cursor to the top to find the tab.

    neat little features like mouse gestures that work and don't overwhelm with too many choices

    already in Vivaldi and better, fully customizable as in Opera Presto, not possible in new Opera.

    the best tab management of any browser I've found to be able to simply go back and forth between two tabs quickly and easily. I use Ctrl-tab for this.

    Which... shortcut has worked that way in every browser for years. Or Ctrl+Pgup etc. Nothing new, in Vivaldi you can add additional keyboard for that like Alt+1 going left, Alt+2 going right…

    built-in ad-blocking capability (I assume this is more resource efficient than relying on extensions for this)

    which is obsolete by now as many sites penetrated its methods already. Better to use uBlock Origin. Speaking of performance studies have shown that the impact of it is milliseconds which you can not perceive anyway.

    neat little features other browsers do not have like the ability to close a tab with Alt-mouseclick

    please...

    neat little features other browsers do not have like the ability to select multiple tabs and then right-click them to copy all their page addresses (URL's)

    Vivaldi already had it from the beginning in the window panel.

    neat little features like the ability to select multiple tabs and then right-click them to save them all to a Speed Dial folder

    In Vivaldi you can save them as a Bookmark folder that can be used in both ways plus as a session, which is not possible in new Opera.

    One more advantage I see with Opera over some other browsers is the very nice layout for extensions:
    -Enabled
    -Disabled
    -Updates
    -Under Development
    It has helped me locate one or more extensions in the past more quickly than I would have located them without such a nice breakdown.

    There are switches in Vivaldi which show that, probably Chromium based, nitpicking territory. As for extension keyboard shortcuts I admit I have no idea for what reason one would enable and disable extensions via shortcuts on a daily basis. My extensions stay pinned where they are.

    Finally, Opera has built-in Cryptocurrency Mining Protection and Malware Blocking
    Other browsers force one to research/search for such protection via extensions. I know Opera has got me covered for this already, so it is one less headache/concern for me. I have enough headaches/concerns, already.

    Malware blocking is provided by Google and exists in all chromium-based browsers and cryptocurrency mining protection is already integrated in uBlock Origin under “Resource abuse”. Besides, if you haven't noticed, cryptocurrency is dead already, it collapsed.



  • opera lost their edge a good while back. was not impressed with neon in the least. as for brave there concept is great, but too many bugs under the hood at this point. if not for the bugs brave would be a great browser. from what i see vivaldi is and has been on the right track for awhile. now the only thing vivaldi needs is to create their own adblocker like brave has, or the various chrome forks need to work together on this one. a adblocker supported by brave, vavaldi, opera, ect... and completely independent for the webstore would go a very long way towards pulling people away from firefox and firefox forks.


 

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