Systemd



  • http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/. the subject is being kicked around in all the Linux forums. My personal experience with a full systemd install is limited to some time spent with Gentoo. I do not like systemd philosophy at all, as it breaks the very spirit, and heart and soul of Linux. Any thoughts on this matter ? Please share



  • How does it "break the spirit, heart and soul of Linux"? To me, the spirit of Linux is about freedom.



  • Exactly. the spirit of Linux is about Freedom. With the systemd-udev merge it is possible for systemd to be crammed down the throats of linux distro developers and users. At the moment, you can compile udev outside of the systemd source tree. Gnome has already made systemd a hard dependancy. As merely a Linux user and not a system-admin, it really doesn't matter whether I use systemd or systemv upstart or openrc as an init system. regardless of the pros and cons of available init systems, I and many others find systemd and its developers to be intrusive.. When core components rely on systemd, it is no longer a matter of choice. Gentoo developers have forked udev because of their disdain for systemd philosophy. It is not posix compliant. Standards are necessary, and prevent fragmentation. I am typing from an Arch Linux system, running systemd.. Because you cannot run Arch Linux without systemd. It boots much faster than an unmodified systemvinit system, due to parallelization (?sp)



  • The Linux "free software distribution" ecosystem aka "free desktop" will not survive this. Thankfully there a different ecosystems: BSD (including iOS/OS X), Android, Embedded Linux with Busybox. They all avoid udev, GNOME and other "hard dependencies".



  • Agreed. I enjoy using FreeBSD for desktop use. No proprieatary video drivers available yet. Hardware manufacturers barely cater to Linux. I had fun with osX in a "Hackintosh" scenario. I was excited to get it running on AMD64 architecture complete with accelerated graphics. as for systemd.. Is it a conspiracy between novell, microsoft, and redhat to strangle the "Free-tards" ? Of which I am one. LOL



  • Any way to contact Arch developers to see if they share the concern? Maybe they will set a long-term goal to disentangle themselves from systemd. I'm on Manjaro myself, so it's relevant to me too.



  • Installed systemd on my Debian testing. Works fine for now. Although that's just my desktop.



  • http://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=559.0
    I never used manjaro. In my limited experience with systemd, (LinuxFromScratch, Gentoo, Arch) building a system with systemd started well but ended in disaster. The machine ran well initially then soon pulled itself down on its head. I'd never use it in a production environment, where trouble shooting must be done quicky. Of course the SuSE and Redhat people are able to "produce". I do not like systemd on any level.. philisophically, on the desktop, and especially not in a production environment. Others are having success with it, though I think the general concensus, is systemd is not quite ready for prime time. I'm comfortabe with human readable text scripts



  • This has become a topic at Manjaro forums https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=13147.0

    It appears that systemd is not respecting the changes in fstab and the once-mounted partitions keep mounting stealthily. The old partitions don't show up in the GUI file manager, but can be detected with lsblk.

    Pretty serious unwanted behaviour…



  • @kernelpanic:

    Is it a conspiracy between novell, microsoft, and redhat to strangle the "Free-tards" ?

    No, it is much simpler: Red Hat makes money off providing support for Linux installations. The more Red Hat code Linux distributions contain, the easier it is for Red Hat to drive competitors off the market, because they always have a knowledge advantage. In a business environment you may start with "free" (beer) Debian installations, but you most likely always end up with RHEL, because it is "officially supported" and "certified".

    Other Linux distributions are no threat to Red Hat, they will be usurped by Systemd's "Core OS" from the inside. Red Hats real problems are BSD, OpenSolaris, Illumos etc. Here do the "license wars" come into play. The whole "only GPL good, other licenses bad" campaign is a result of this. Red Hat wants a Linux monopoly in the server market.



  • Another topic at Manjaro forums https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=14080.0

    It's possible to change from systemd to openrc, and the distro developers are thinking of switching to openrc or at least issuing a release with openrc.



  • @ersi:

    It's possible to change from systemd to openrc, and the distro developers are thinking of switching to openrc or at least issuing a release with openrc.

    Cool. Manjaro is based on Arch Linux, isn't it? I heard the Arch Linux developers delete every systemd critic from their forums.



  • @jtsn:

    @ersi:

    It's possible to change from systemd to openrc, and the distro developers are thinking of switching to openrc or at least issuing a release with openrc.

    Cool. Manjaro is based on Arch Linux, isn't it? I heard the Arch Linux developers delete every systemd critic from their forums.

    Yes, Manjaro is Arch-based. However, the approach of Manjaro developers and the atmosphere of the community are very different. The difference is like between Debian and Mint. Arch is like Debian, Manjaro is like Mint.





  • Even if the whole year 2015 here was drowned in silence, we can expect fundamental changes around the Linux world. Meanwhile you can dist-upgrade from Debian Jessie to Devuan Jessie, which is trying to preserve a freedom of choice.
    A viable rapprochement with this topic can be found at this page.



  • Cool. Manjaro is based on Arch Linux, isn't it? I heard the Arch Linux developers delete every systemd critic from their forums.

    Usually I use either an Arch distro and cure the systemd cancer by myself.

    But Manjaro has now a pre configured iso with openrc which is working very well out of the box

    https://sourceforge.net/projects/manjaro-openrc/

    Also is pretty simple to uninstall systemd and use openrc on a standard Manjaro tanks to their repository.

    Obviously systemd can be eradicated from a plain Arch as well, but the process is slightly more confusing, given unfortunately there are two different flavors of openrc there. An that can be very confusing even for not so newbie people.

    Have a look here http://systemd-free.org/ and on Manjaro forums for any info about untainted linux systems.



  • @The_Solutor You mentioned the openrc Manjaro before and I took the time to replace my Manjaro with the openrc version. Comparing Manjaro openrc and Devuan I think Devuan still has some way to go for reaching the same kind of maturity. Some pessimists are seeing Linux already at its end predicting the Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) to be the free alternative. On one system I am playing with PC-BSD and got the impression as a normal user I have a lot of work to do with respect to the operating system.
    From my point of view 'freedom' looks like the opposite of 'convenience'.



  • @RJules3:

    @The_Solutor You mentioned the openrc Manjaro before and I took the time to replace my Manjaro with the openrc version.

    Yes. Surely Manjaro is is in a better shape than other alternatives. That's because the work on openrc started four years ago on arch.

    https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=152606

    Well before the surrender of Debian.

    In general I think that Manjaro is one of the best distro available nowadays.

    it combines the strengths of Arch foundations with a very refined look, ease of install steps, and sane defaults. Openrc instead of systemd makes the rest.

    Some pessimists are seeing Linux already at its end predicting the Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) to be the free alternative. On one system I am playing with PC-BSD and got the impression as a normal user I have a lot of work to do with respect to the operating system.

    Frankly I think that *bsd world is doing the right thing for the wrong reason, or just because they are forced to.

    As a matter of fact BSD too liberal licences permitted to parasitize a lot of open source work, defeating part of the open source spirit, and I don't like that either.

    From my point of view 'freedom' looks like the opposite of 'convenience'.

    The rule of thumb is that nowadays every thing leverages on laziness and looks too simple to be managed, is a danger.

    No matter if we talk about geolocation, cortana and alike, sw markets, credit cards, and so on. Systemd is just another item added to such (constantly growing) list.



  • @RJules3:

    @The_Solutor You mentioned the openrc Manjaro before and I took the time to replace my Manjaro with the openrc version. Comparing Manjaro openrc and Devuan I think Devuan still has some way to go for reaching the same kind of maturity. Some pessimists are seeing Linux already at its end predicting the Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) to be the free alternative. On one system I am playing with PC-BSD and got the impression as a normal user I have a lot of work to do with respect to the operating system.
    From my point of view 'freedom' looks like the opposite of 'convenience'.

    Mostly i agree with you. But i'd like to point out this: Manjaro OpenRC is a very nice distro, especially some comunity driven editions (like the jwm flavour or the openbox based one). Me, on one machine i've running manjaro openrc and on this other (this one i'm using right now) i made an adaptation of the manjaro jwm to devuan (ascii), which runs equally well - and i use openrc on devuan as well (although personally i like pacman more than debian/devuan apt-get.

    The differences are in this: Manjaro OpenRc has an excellent openrc implementation (those of gentoo with some small differences) while the debian implementation of openrc is somehow akwarded (by far not as clean). On the other hand, manjaro has to pin out lots of arch's systemd dependencies, which in the long rung might (will??!!) create trouble since systemd is a kind of cuthlu which tends to inglobe always more and which creates lots of - mostly unneeded - dependencies.

    Devuan will come, when the actual testing version (ascii) will become stable, with vdev in place of udev. I'm quite optimistic, that that will work. But in the middle term i think they will have to create something like a slackware (pacman?) style of package management, since there are always more programs which come in their prebuilt version with the systemd option (as long as debian does not change their mind). So, the goal should be to offer to the client a confortable option of installing/building the applications with the systemd options compiled out.

    Sure, Gnome as a desktop option for a systemd free distro is a no-go (a decision slackware has token long time ago).

    PS. I forgot: The initial main reason for systemd, the faster bootup, with the increasing complexity of that blackbox called systemd, disappeared. The Manjaro OpenRC edition - ceteris paribus - boots faster than its systemd cousin.



  • jsfarinet wrote:
    … Mostly i agree with you. ...
    Thank you! That's very kind. :)

    … i made an adaptation of the manjaro jwm to devuan (ascii), which runs equally well ...
    Are you the author/coauthor of this post? Until today I couldn't convince myself taking steps toward Joe's Window Manager.

    … systemd dependencies, which in the long rung might (will??!!) create trouble ...
    The ability to see the future I do not have but I am very grateful there are developers providing an alternative. Funny thing is, I read about Devuan and only there got to know this systemd hassle.

    …Devuan will come, when the actual testing version (ascii) will become stable, with vdev in place of udev. ...
    Devuan Jessie and Devuan Ascii are very usable to me, even if the status is still beta. XFCE, Mate, and Fluxbox seem to be suitable environments to work on. At least Vivaldi could be installed and behaves as expected. ;) Do you think there will be a fast decision about the device management?

    … Gnome as a desktop option for a systemd free distro is a no-go ...
    Gnome, KDE, Unity, Cinnamon, etc - discussion about the desktop environments won't stop but I never understood why someone who doesn't earn money that way would try so hard to convince someone else to use a specific environment. I would be happy, if there was also in future a choice - preferably not only a Hobson's choice!

    … - ceteris paribus - ...
    'all else unchanged' ? Didn't you tweak your operating system to the utmost? ;)


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