Open letter to Jon concerning M3

Morg42

Very well written, thanks for your letter!

I agree that a mail client like M2 (or even better) is missing and I see how many people are eagerly awaiting its arrival.

Maybe you can enlighten me on a topic which I just seem unable to comprehend up to now: why do many apparently need M3 as a Vivaldi integrated feature? Why not release M3 as a separate client which can be used independently of or completely without Vivaldi?

More generic: what benefit do you see for yourself if many features are packed into one application? Are there integration benefits to combining mail and www? Or is it just easier not to switch apps?

Codehunter

@pesala said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

@codehunter said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

Can you briefly summarize if and if so, what Jon said about M3? Thank you very much!

The only answer he can give, of course, is “When it's ready.” Although the IMAPI client is largely finished and in use by Sopranos, POP3 and email Import are not nearly ready yet. He does not want to release the mail client and have users lose their mail.

Although you and I know very well about the hazards of using Beta software or Snapshots, inevitably. many users just do not get it. They complain bitterly about Chromium bugs over which Vivaldi has no control. It is just not worth ruining Vivaldi's reputation by releasing it too soon. It is not Vapour-ware, it really is coming soon.

I already wrote in my letter that I understand the reasons why Jon and his team are so cautious about releasing such a complex feature. That's not really my primary concern. Because I write software myself, I know that the development time to release a first public alpha or beta is always the sum of man-hours invested in development.

If you develop professional software, you never write everything yourself, because that would take too long. Just like we decided to use Chromium as a renderer instead of rewriting a new engine like Presto from scratch. Chromium is free of charge if you comply with certain licensing conditions. But I can well imagine that the mail client in particular could benefit from other professional source codes. For example, finished IMAP and POP3 implementations or a powerful database engine. These are, indirectly, buyable man hours. If something like this could help, but it simply lacks the necessary small change, I made the proposal with the crowdfunding campaign.

The POP3 issue is very difficult. There are still a lot of free mailproviders who simply don't offer IMAP. Secondly, and this seems to be a peculiarity of the German mentality, many users mistrust the mail providers. They simply do not want to store their mail stock externally on a kind of cloud server. On the one hand, because there are doubts about reliability and availability, and on the other hand, because in Germany there is a deep and elementary mistrust of the state and, above all, its secret services. This has historical reasons and has grown for more than 70 years. As a developer, you should always take this seriously.

By the way, I've never been a soprano, because my understanding of beta testers tells me that you not only get the latest beta software, but also give detailed feedback. Unfortunately, I often don't have time for that in my job. Nevertheless, I would like to take a look at how far M3 has progressed in the meantime. Of course, I wouldn't use it for my production mailbox, of course, but for a separate test account.

Ich habe ja in meinem Brief schon geschrieben, dass ich die Gründe sehr gut verstehe, weshalb Jon und sein Team so vorsichtig sind mit der Freigabe eines so komplexen Features. Darum geht es mir eigentlich nicht vorrangig. Weil ich selbst Software schreibe weiß ich, dass die Entwicklungszeit bis zur Freigabe einer ersten öffentlichen Alpha oder Beta immer die Summe der Mannstunden ist, die man in die Entwicklung investiert.

Wenn man professionelle Software entwickelt, dann schreibt man ja nie alles selbst, weil das viel zu lange dauern würde. So wie man sich hier entschieden hat, z.B. Chromium als Renderer einzusetzen, statt eine neue Engine wie Presto von Grund auf neu zu schreiben. Chromium ist kostenlos wenn man sich an gewisse Lizenzbestimmungen hält. Doch ich kann mir gut vorstellen, dass gerade der Mailclient sehr von anderen professionellen Quellcodes profitieren könnte. Beispielsweise von fertigen IMAP- und POP3-Implementierungen oder auch eine leistungsfähige Datenbankengine. Das sind, indirekt, zukaufbare Mannstunden. Falls so etwas helfen könnte aber schlicht das nötige Kleingeld dafür fehlt, dafür habe ich den Vorschlag mit der Crowdfunding-Kampagne gemacht.

Das Thema POP3 ist ganz schwierig. Es gibt nach wie vor viele freie Mailprovider, die schlicht kein IMAP anbieten. Zweitens, und das scheint eine Besonderheit der deutschen Mentalität zu sein, misstrauen viele Anwender den Mailprovidern. Sie wollen ihre Mailbestände ganz einfach nicht extern auf einer Art Cloudserver lagern. Zum Einen weil man an der Zuverlässigkeit und Verfügbarkeit zweifelt, zum anderen weil man in Deutschland ein ganz tiefes und elementares Misstrauen gegenüber dem Staat und vorallem seinen Geheimdiensten hat. Das hat historische Gründe und ist über mehr als 70 Jahre gewachsen. Das sollte man als Entwickler immer ernst nehmen.

Am Rande bemerkt, ich war nie ein Soprano weil mein Verständnis von Betatestern mir sagt, dass man nicht nur die neueste Beta Software bekommt, sondern auch ausführliche Rückmeldungen gibt. Dafür fehlt mir, leider, in meinem Job oftmals die Zeit. Trotzdem würde ich mir sehr gerne mal anschauen, wie weit M3 inzwischen gediehen ist. Allerdings würde ich es natürlich nicht auf mein produktiv genutztes Postfach ansetzen sondern auf ein separat zu Testzwecken eingerichtetes.

Codehunter

@morg42 said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

Very well written, thanks for your letter!
I agree that a mail client like M2 (or even better) is missing and I see how many people are eagerly awaiting its arrival.
Maybe you can enlighten me on a topic which I just seem unable to comprehend up to now: why do many apparently need M3 as a Vivaldi integrated feature? Why not release M3 as a separate client which can be used independently of or completely without Vivaldi?
More generic: what benefit do you see for yourself if many features are packed into one application? Are there integration benefits to combining mail and www? Or is it just easier not to switch apps?

This is a topic that is very often asked in connection with Opera and M2. After all, Opera simply removed the M2 mail client from the Opera browser and released it as a separate program. To put it simply, the difference is nothing more than the mouse path you have to move back and forth to switch between the two parts of the program. Whether the switch is located in a browser toolbar or the taskbar of the operating system, this is actually just a question of the user's habit.

As a developer, I can also say that it doesn't make a lot of difference from a technical point of view whether you pack both parts into one application or into two separate ones. There are even techniques that allow you to connect separate programs with each other in such a way that they look like one - similar to plugins in Firefox or Chrome. Only the plugins do not work without the browser.

Das ist ein Thema, dass sehr oft im Zusammenhang mit Opera und M2 gefragt wird. Schließlich hat die Firma Opera den Mailclient M2 einfach aus dem Browser Opera ausgebaut und als separates Programm veröffentlicht. Der Unterschied ist, vereinfacht gesagt, nichts weiter als der Mauspfad, den man zurück legen muss um zwischen den beiden Programmteilen umzuschalten. Ob der Umschalter nun in einer Toolbar des Browsers liegt oder der Taskbar des Betriebssystems, das ist eigentlich nur eine Frage der Gewohnheit des Anwenders.

Als Entwickler kann ich auch sagen, es macht technisch gesehen nicht viel Unterschied, ob man beide Teile nun in eine Anwendung packt oder in zwei getrennte. Es gibt sogar Techniken, mittels derer man separate Programme so mit einander verbinden kann dass sie wie eines aussehen - vergleichbar mit Plugins in Firefox oder Chrome. Nur dass hier die Plugins nicht ohne den Browser funktionieren.

derDay

@morg42 said :

More generic: what benefit do you see for yourself if many features are packed into one application? Are there integration benefits to combining mail and www? Or is it just easier not to switch apps?

I think, that many people used the mail panel in O12 times, so you had always a quick overview.
But if I remember correctly, someone has explained it like this (maybe Jon himself?):
you need a renderer to display the html mails correctly. And if you have a mailprogram with a render engine, then it's easy to use the render engine also for browsing websites, so you also reduce the hardware resources.

jon

@codehunter Thanks for this detailed message and for your support to Opera and now Vivaldi.

I can tell you that we are very eager to get M3 out. I have been using it myself, as a replacement for M2, for more than a year now. During that time it has improved a lot. I would not dream of going back to M2. That being said, there are still things to do. Although a lot of the heavy lifting is done, there are still issues to resolve with regards to stability and memory usage in particular and there are still unfinished features and even missing features. Sadly that includes POP3 at this time, but I do hope we will get to it soon.

We have used some third party libraries this time as well, but there is still a lot of work to get this right. We have enough resources on this task, although one could always use a bit more. That being said, we do not need external funding. If you want to support us, please share Vivaldi with your friends. That is the best way to support us, as the more users we get, the better.

I would hope we have some really good news in the months ahead. M3 is looking great and looking better each day. Just give us a little more time and I believe it will have been worth the wait.

Best,
Jon.

Morg42

@codehunter said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

To put it simply, the difference is nothing more than the mouse path you have to move back and forth to switch between the two parts of the program. Whether the switch is located in a browser toolbar or the taskbar of the operating system, this is actually just a question of the user's habit.

This is what I thought.

As a developer, I can also say that it doesn't make a lot of difference from a technical point of view whether you pack both parts into one application or into two separate ones. There are even techniques that allow you to connect separate programs with each other in such a way that they look like one - similar to plugins in Firefox or Chrome. Only the plugins do not work without the browser.

I see clear advantages to developing separate apps: you can have independent release cycles, maybe even different dev teams, and although often overlooked, smaller downloads for the individual programs.

@derday said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

I think, that many people used the mail panel in O12 times, so you had always a quick overview.

I have a system-wide mail panel, others may not. Ok...

you need a renderer to display the html mails correctly. And if you have a mailprogram with a render engine, then it's easy to use the render engine also for browsing websites, so you also reduce the hardware resources.

That is a valid point I had not thought of before. My mail program is console only, so for me HTML mails are a nuisance anyway. The backup (Airmail, also on mobile, see above) does display. It might be worth using the V renderer - but then I'd like to have some control over what elements might be loaded / activated (external resources, scripts, ...)

Thanks for your feedback!

saudiqbal

I would be happy with IMAP only!

Steffie

I would be unhappy with IMAP only! In fact, i would not use any email schema that precluded POP3.

Ayespy

@steffie Well, to be fair, however it is released initially, it will have POP3 ultimately.

Steffie

@ayespy I know [i listened to the podcast yesterday & was gratified with Jon's assurance]. My post here was merely aimed as a 100% counterpoint to any instance where i read other users opine that IMAP-only would be ok... it would not. My logic is that if POP3 supporters stay quiet & only IMAPers post [implausible i know, but i'm all about principle] then over time a false perception would arise that the V community only cared about IMAP.

You know, it's my version of the classic aphorism "When good women do nothing, IMAP arises" or the alternative "All that is necessary for the triumph of IMAP is that good women do nothing"

Ayespy

@steffie Well, one of our strongest and most prolific Sopranos and moderators lives in Germany, and their local email provider has only POP3, no IMAP. If there's no POP3, I fear there will be an internal rebellion.

Ayespy

@steffie And I personally must have POP3 for permanent business records. For the time being, I turn on a POP3 client periodically just to download and permanently store all email incrementally. I run a MAPI client routinely, so as to synchronize emails on my various and diverse devices in multiple locations (because, for instance, I have 2 offices 630 miles from each other...)

Steffie

@ayespy said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

I have 2 offices 630 miles from each other

Makes one wistful for schizophrenia, eh?

Blackbird

@ayespy said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

... And I personally must have POP3 for permanent business records. ...

This!!

Steffie

@ayespy said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

must have POP3 for permanent business records

See? That's it, that's what i simply do not get about IMAPers. IMO it's simply madness to presume that one's critical personal &/or business records are safe when kept on someone else's remote servers rather than in the individual user's own local system. One does not need to be a tinhatter to feel this way; there are various cases when 3rd party email providers either simply shut up shop without notice, were hacked, or were OoS for extended periods for tech reasons. To place one's faith in the permanent availability of others' facilities, & risk one's own data on that flawed premise, is loopy IMO.

luetage

@ayespy Which email provider?

Ayespy

@luetage GMX.de as best I recall.

luetage

@ayespy That's what I thought. It's probably the biggest email provider in german speaking countries. But it's a mistake to believe IMAP isn't working -- I'm using it on my gmx address for over 10 years, on a free account (no pro version needed).

Give them this link.
https://hilfe.gmx.net/pop-imap/imap/imap-serverdaten.html

Ayespy

@luetage I'll pass on the info.

saudiqbal

I have been using Gmail since it came out, therefore imap is enough for me. I read and delete my emails, so no need for any pop3 for me.