Open letter to Jon concerning M3

[Para-Noid]

@saudiqbal said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

Please let us use M3 now, i am responsible for my own lost emails.

You might be. Vivaldi isn't. Think about the court cases for a business who lost money due to lost sensitive emails. Vivaldi could be stuck with millions of dollars in paying award money.

[iAN CooG]

They can always give you a fake mail program, that does nothing, but at least you would be a proud owner of an early access alpha preview of M3
Is that what you want?

[zhnujm]

@para-noid

Yeas, thats why absolutely nobody release beta or alpha software, because he will sued to death if something happens....

[Motionshot]

@para-noid said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

@saudiqbal said in Open letter to Jon concerning M3:

Please let us use M3 now, i am responsible for my own lost emails.

You might be. Vivaldi isn't. Think about the court cases for a business who lost money due to lost sensitive emails. Vivaldi could be stuck with millions of dollars in paying award money.

Not if they hide it somewhere obsucre with a big, fat warning. i.e. vivaldi://monkeys-are-cool with a warning "IN THIS RELEASE, M3 IS ALPHA SOFTWARE AT BEST. VIVALDI IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR LOST EMAILS." and then there's a picture of a monkey you have to click on 5 times in order to actually enable M3.

[Para-Noid]

@motionshot Your need for instant gratification is not a good reason for Vivaldi to release M3. There are far more obvious reasons for V to release a finished product. Think it through. I'm satisfied you will be able to figure it out.

[derDay]

another feature, where Vivaldi can grab some users and/or stand out to other browsers

(I know that we can already use this nice little extension)

[Para-Noid]

@derday Found this in Feature Requests https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/24115/rss-and-atom-reader

You might find the search page to be immensely useful https://forum.vivaldi.net/search
Sometimes the results can be confusing at best. Just don't give up.

[Knuthf]

Thanks Jon - I like this thread, but I come from the big document maage systems like Documentum and Opentext. These use emails for workflow, and it is more or less everything. You make rules that determine the flow and interaction - the actors involved. Here documents are not just attached but may also be URL - just like in NOTIS-DS. The emails are held in a database and index for fast lookup, allowing search. The documents are stored in a "repository" and protected, and can be "checked out" and stored elswhere. You can check in documents when replying, increment the version / revision and describe the changes - you can make the entire Github and enforce coding standards. The message database seems to be one issue here, well, we have the Unix MBOX format, available open source code. Thunderbird use this, Evolution as well and Apple´s own Mail. It is years since I have used the plaything software.
I would look at the browser code as one to use to provide the user interface. I had never intended to propose a huge solution - just to use a standard open source tool, a simple and proven way of doing things. I recommend to all of you that have not studied the world outside Microsoft to install Linux Mint on an old laptop and use this, then search the net for the open source libraries. Register on Github and make software with others using code that has been produced by others. One of the huge problems we face now is that the phishing and abuse of the net has given us a line of "security software" coded by people trained by Microsoft. They take down mail services when the security is not upgraded on time - it is all strictly hierachical. We ned distributed security certificates - not more entanglement. Use the open source libraries Jon, and the broser to display. Nope, nothing has made me reconsider.

[Para-Noid]

@knuthf Again, what does this have to do with M3? This is not the thread to discuss documents Microsoft or installing Linux.
Not once is M3 nor it's "hoped for" release even mentioned in your post. I understand your desire to be heard but you might want to start your own topic in the appropriate child board. You may find an index here.

[greybeard]

@zhnujm How else do you get people to test your program or create a base for it than to create an alpha version?
I have been using V since Vivaldi's very first Alpha release. Had Jon and the crew not released an Alpha version of the browser we may not be here today.
An email client is a much different creature than a browser or even the webmail page.
Please let them take the time to ensure it is done properly.

[Knuthf]

@para-noid Very simple: To get new release out, even M3, you need more users of Vivaldi. A mail client can be an extension - coded for most outside, but will need features in the code - "hooks" so someone can send an entire HTML formatted message and get it displayed.
Nobody hopes for a release of code unless this has a purpose. Then we can wait, even into the new year. If you never have coded one line, never have managed others, at least have the decency of listening and try to understand. I am not here for a discussion with you, others may be open to argue, but I am not.
I use a 17" MacBook unlike the rest, latest i7 processor and 1TB SSD, MacOS is not upgraded because of flaws in OSX, AV is ClamAV (paid) and I browse with Vivaldi

[Knuthf]

@greybeard There are many ways for an email client, the simplest is to use Thunderbird or Evolution, drop the millions of lines to render the GUI and replace with Vivaldi. That requires a well defined API.
Some may want the client to be seen as part of Vivaldi, as an extension, well, that may be similar and may be something in between. I can only speak for my own view which is to use whatever they consider usable of the existing code, and work beside everything and make the client without interfering. This may be a "Chrome" extension, but very unlikely because the "hooks" were made by Vivaldi and the code will be coded for this, and based on what they know of how to render HTML and multimedia and paint the screens. The "mailbox" code can be the open source code. This is the same code that Apple use for their "Mail" application - storage in "MBOX" format, with SQL interface.

[Para-Noid]

@knuthf Again, this is getting to be way off topic. Please start your own thread. Once you have the thread started you will find others willing to join your discussion.

[RavenTS]

As a long-time Opera user and M2 fan, I rejoiced when the initial announcement for Vivaldi (with e-mail soon!) went out.
I switched browsers almost immediately but held out with M2 for about a year. I still use it as my 'e-mail archive'.
However, I had to switch my 'normal' mail client to eM Client after trying Thunderbird and a lot of others.
I'm still waiting for M3, but as e-mail has become less and less important to me in my private life, I might just give up.

It has just taken too darn long.

I think time is running out for Vivaldi to achieve a positive differentiation with 'E-Mail in the browser'. It might just not be important to enough people anymore, heated discussions here notwithstanding.
Wait another year with M3, and noone will care.

[Ayespy]

@ravents I understand your frustration, but no one is waiting. The mail team is working very hard.

[RavenTS]

@ayespy Okay, 'waiting' probably was the wrong word.
The risk of M3 being irrelevant when it's finally released, however, is real.

[Ayespy]

@ravents To the degree that permanent local copies of emails remain important for business and regulatory reasons, I suspect that having an email client will remain important to a segment of users. As it happens, there is a broad intersection between users who need a local client and users who benefit from a browser like Vivaldi.

I am less pessimistic than you are concerning the ultimate relevance of M3, whenever it appears. That said, it's my feeling that M3 is not a year away, given its current state. I use it as my default email client for the most part, and only need to look elsewhere for about two (count 'em, 2) functions on which I personally rely heavily in my work.

[LonM]

@ayespy Out of curiosity, (feel free to not answer if I'm being too nosy ) what 2 function can Vivaldi+m3 not provide?

[Ayespy]

@lonm They are just normal email functions that every client has, but are not finished for M3 yet. They will be included in the first release, I'm sure.

The thing with email clients, as I have mentioned here and elsewhere before, is that they are deceptively complex. They combine hundreds of functions that people just take for granted because "this is what email does," but when you go to actually build a client from the ground up, as is necessary in this case, you eventually realize that an email client is at least as complex and work-intensive as a browser. Vivaldi has like 5 people working on email if I recall right, and another client I used to follow, Mailbird, had a development team of 10 or better, (they are a pay-for client, which released its first version two years before Vivaldi put out its first technical preview), and still isn't "done." To speed their progress they hold regular "hackathons" inviting coders from everywhere to contribute code. Worse still, Mailbird started with Thunderbird's base code right out of the box - all of the base functionality was there at the start. Still, the Vivaldi client had some of its features before mailbird had the same ones. So if 10 people can take 5 1/2 years building on an existing code base and not finish, I think it's remarkable that M3 is as close as it is starting from scratch after about 3 1/2 years with our little-bitty team.

Off my soapbox now.

[mib2berlin]

Hi, I am looking forward M3 but ...
As I am looking for a new client after M2 I change to Evolution and now to Kontact on Linux and realize I need now a groupware client not only an email client.
Calendar, Notes, Address and Email client synced on all devices and so forth.
Will Vivaldi and M3 support this too?
I saw Calendar in Vivaldi some time ago but was not functional.

Cheers, mib