From Opera 12.17 user perspective



  • Hello, I use old Opera since the very beginning and never could switch over to any other browser. It's not that I have never tried - I must use FireFox and IE since some of job sites do not work on Opera and even tried Chrome, but none of them give me what Opera 12.17 has in stock. As Presto is not supported anymore and more and more sites are displayed incorrectly, I am looking for alternative (btw. why not Presto?????????) - found Vivaldi. I know it's still beta, but maybe my observations will help getting it better (please switch to Presto!!!!!). Let's start. 1. Number of options - very limited, even thouse available in Menu comparing to Opera. I do not compare to opera:config because it would be a "fatality" ;) 2. Customization of the layout - fonts, colors, skins, etc. - it does not exists 3. Zooming using the slider - does not work "real time" but shows up effect after releasing the slider. 4. Grouping of cards (sorry if I use wrong names of the functions - I use polish language installation) - very hard to select the card inside the group and cannot un-group only one of the cards using drag'n drop - I found only ungroup whole group at once. 5. No possibility to open a link in the new card in the background. 6. Full screen display of the flash movie opens a new window (yes! that's a fact!) in the background (facepalm). 7. Missing "blocking content" from Opera 12 - ultra usefull feature! 8. Lack of support old Opera extensions (I understand it's because it's Chrome-undercover. Please switch over to Presto!!!!) 9. Missing "properties" of the pictures including exif information 10. Missing option to hide browser in the systray (Alt + Q in Opera 12 - very useful). 11. Missing confirmation about the closure of the browser. 12. Missing session operations - save, load, export, import - ultra useful. 13. Opera 12 has (had? please switch over to Presto!!!!) nice feature of google (was it google?) clues while writing in the address bar - it's missing here 14. I like Task Manager and developer tools, but it's limited comparing to developer tools from Opera 12 15. Very limited site preferences (hidden in Display Site Information) comparing to Site Preferences in Opera 12. 16. Searching throughout the site - Ctrl+F has very limited functionality comparing to (.) in Opera 12 - it does not have shortcuts Ctrl+G and Shift+Ctrl+G (search next, previous). 17. Missing searching links throughout the site - (,) in Opera 12. 18. Missing functionality called "Links" in opera 12 - showing the list of all links inside the site. 19. [edited] I found history on the speeddial. Strange place, but in place. 20. Missing searching throughout the history including the content of the visited sites - functionality in Opera 12 which you could activate writing "h word" in the address bar. 21. I mentioned the lack of customization of the layout - this includes also customization of the toolbars and especially putting buttons on the toolbars - like "use proxy", "show pics" etc. 22. Honestly I am missing standard window title in the top of the window - I hate small fonts on the cards and cannot read what's there on the laptop without closing up to the screen. 23. Missing minimize, maximize, resize and move each card separately - really cannot display two (or more) cards next to each other??? 24. Password manager filling credentials automaticaly instead of Ctrl+Enter - no way to have more than 1 login? I have the feeling that Vivaldi is slow. Can someone guide me how to import session from Opera 12? I usually have 60-70 cards opened in Opera 12.17 all the time - constantly and would like to import them all to Vivaldi and check how it cope with that. p.s. have I mentioned my kind request - please switch to Presto?????



  • You know Presto is owned by Opera, right?

    There is a reason they're not using Presto…



  • Yes I know and it can be sold, right? ;)

    Another way is to create new engine - Chrome is free of charge, but not perfect. In fact it's long way from perfect.



  • Another thing. Opera 12 has a nice feater to work on cache. I.e. I am writing a post here. Meanwhile I loose internet connection or there is a failure somewhere between - I press submit. Failed of course. Press back on the navigation bar and I am back on the same site with post text field filled with written text.

    I just did the same test with Vivaldi - not only I did not get the written and not saved text back, but also a site was not reopened from cache, but a main page of the forum has been opened.

    Shame on Vivaldi.



  • @Olleo:

    Shame on Vivaldi.

    This browser is effectively pre-alpha. It has a long road ahead before it gets to release quality. Once it gets nearer to that and you know what features are included or missing in the browser, then better keep the "shame on Vivaldi" to a minimum. Still, yeah, a few of the things you want I want, but best not get too critical at this stage.



  • Gort, most important issue for me is the engine - as far as I know it's kind of interpreter or something which is frankly speaking slow. Chrome engine allows devs only what google is willing to, so I have doubts Vivaldi is going to be as functional and as fast as Opera on Presto.

    For sure I will be watching because Opera 12 will be less and less compatible with modern sites.



  • @Olleo:

    Gort, most important issue for me is the engine - as far as I know it's kind of interpreter or something which is frankly speaking slow. Chrome engine allows devs only what google is willing to, so I have doubts Vivaldi is going to be as functional and as fast as Opera on Presto.

    All I was saying was don't be too damning of Vivaldi right now, as it's early days. Give them a chance.

    BTW, Blink, the engine Vivaldi uses, is open source, so they can make whatever changes they wish to it within the limits set by their development team's resources and abilities. Although Google take the lead in the development of Blink, it's up to Vivaldi how close they sail to Google.

    For sure I will be watching because Opera 12 will be less and less compatible with modern sites.

    thumbs-up smiley



  • @Olleo:

    Yes I know and it can be sold, right? ;)

    Possibly, wrong.

    We don't know the details about all the contracts with the (many) third parties involved.

    A similar situation was already seen with the OS/2 operating system.

    Many asked to open it but IBM refused, although in the mean time became a strong open source contributor.



  • Actually kernel of OS/2, as far as I remember, became the kernel of Windows NT, so I am not surprised. As Presto is no more used anywhere, it could be sold. In order to keep the source compatible, owner should open it's code. But that's only my opinion.



  • @Olleo:

    Actually kernel of OS/2, as far as I remember, became the kernel of Windows NT

    No this is not a 100% correct picture. Both OS2 2+ and NT 3.xx+ are based on thew work done together by MS and IBM, at the time of OS2 v1.x. But they are two independent products with very few commonalities.

    Likely OS2 was not opened because was still used by many banks, ATMs and other niche markets.

    As Presto is no more used anywhere

    Are you so sure ?

    Is still plenty of devices with a presto based browsers inside them, consoles, dumb and smart phones, smart TVs and so on.

    Even the recovery environments of Thinkpads still includes Opera. On the android market some branded version of Operamini like the one from vodafone are still available.

    So no you can't be sure that the product can be sold lightheartedly.



  • Speaking of the Presto engine, Opera appears to still be using it themselves:

    Opera upgrades Mini server to (almost) the version of Presto used in Opera 12



  • @The_Solutor:

    @Olleo:

    Actually kernel of OS/2, as far as I remember, became the kernel of Windows NT

    No this is not a 100% correct picture. Both OS2 2+ and NT 3.xx+ are based on thew work done together by MS and IBM, at the time of OS2 v1.x. But they are two independent products with very few commonalities.

    Likely OS2 was not opened because was still used by many banks, ATMs and other niche markets.

    Ok, but you must admit, that it could be also a reason of not opening the source.

    As Presto is no more used anywhere

    Are you so sure ?

    Is still plenty of devices with a presto based browsers inside them, consoles, dumb and smart phones, smart TVs and so on.

    Even the recovery environments of Thinkpads still includes Opera. On the android market some branded version of Operamini like the one from vodafone are still available.

    So no you can't be sure that the product can be sold lightheartedly.

    I meant that it is no longer developed and supported. Thing that some HW has it preinstalled doesn't mean that Opera supports it. I also have Opera on couple of devices including laptops, smartfons and even old Nokia E72 - all of them (I am not sure about Symbian version) on Presto.



  • @Sajadi:

    Chromium has the advantage that it is the most advanced engine right now, and in combination with the CSS/Javascript UI quite a lot of customizations are possible.

    Using Chromium is the best compromise in my opion - you save tons of money for developing an own engine and a lot of work is already done by the Chromium devs, so Vivaldi team can put all their focus in customization features :)

    Tell me how to import session from Opera 12 to Vivaldi and I will let you know if Chromium engine has any advantage. So far even one card open is not so fast.



  • All right (or rather I should say - nothing is right ;) ).

    I've made some tests - manually opened the same sites I have always running in Opera 12.17.

    Number of cards: ~60

    Memory occupied in Opera running for couple of days (I hibernate laptop): ~1.7GB
    Memory occupied in Vivaldi: ~2.3GB
    Memory occupied in Opera after restart of the application: ~1.35GB
    Memory occupied in Vivaldi after restart: ~2.3GB

    % CPU occupied in Opera before restart: ~15%
    % CPU occupied in Vivaldi: 30%
    % CPU occupied in Opera after restart: ~8%
    % CPU occupied in Vivaldi after restart: ~15-20%

    Closing of applications - both similar, few to 10 seconds.

    Opening of Opera with ~60 cards: immediately, % CPU occupied ~30% for around a minute, 8% after all cards are loaded from cache.
    Opening of Vivaldi with ~60 cards: 1 minute before window shows up, 100% CPU occupied for around 1.5 minute, 60% of CPU for another 40-50s, 40% for couple of minutes, later 15-20% constantly.

    Speed of working (after loading of all the sites):
    Opera - almost the same fast as with 1 card - opening new one, switching between cards, closing, operating on the site etc. immediately
    Vivaldi - opening new, closing, switching - 1-2 s each operation.

    Problems:

    • Opera usually none, sporadical crashes (last time around 2 months ago - without any particular reason)
    • Vivaldi - too short usage, but so far big problems with speed of rendering - showing up previews (mouse above the card, etc.) takes 1-2 seconds and such big number of cards makes mess in display - engine has problems putting a resized cards in correct places, so part of cards can be invisible (empty space), or moved on top of others (mostly during opening big number - after restart it's ok, but do not try to move the cards, group and ungroup - again problems). Also if the sites have some dynamic content, it's slow, e.g. highlighting the content under the mouse takes 1-2 seconds and responsiveness is very slow.

    Btw. I remind - grouping and displaying/choosing cards in groups is a complete disaster in Vivaldi.

    Current tech-preview of Vivaldi is useless for my daily work unfortunately.

    Anybody can compare it to Chrome? I haven't tried such test on it, but I remember I tried Opera 20+ once and it looked the same in terms of performance.

    p.s. HW: Dell Latitude E7440 on i5 4300U and 8GB RAM, HDD SSD 128GB.



  • Btw. one more thing.

    I ask someone who is responsible for Vivaldi layout, to open more cards and check out how it looks on card bar - due to this "lolipop-outlook" or "apple-like" whatever you call it (lack of borders in graphic objects, like cards, scroll bar, menu, etc.) causes that it's hard to know where one cards ends and new one starts. It's ugly and user-unfriendly.



  • To avoid possible confusion, “cards” are usually called “Tabs”.

    See the replies to this other thread on Tabs.

    Because Vivaldi (and Chrome) run each tab in a separate process, if you open sixty tabs, then you're launching sixty processes. That has the benefit that if one tab crashes, the application keeps running. However, running 50 or 100 tabs in Vivaldi is impractical.

    Tab-stacking is not working properly yet, but when it is that will be the best way to manage multiple tabs without running out of space on the tab bar. It will never solve the performance issues, due to the way that Vivaldi works, although lazy tab loading, which is in the pipeline should solve application startup speed issues.

    If you must have more then 20-30 tabs, better stay with Opera 12.17 and add a menu item (as I have done) to open troublesome tabs in Vivaldi. That's the only practical solution for users who need lots of tabs. I doubt if that will ever change even after the current code is optimised and the first official stable version is released.



  • Youtube - space does not play/pause; playing movie does not block the screensaver.



  • Firefox with TreeStyleTab (Piro), ContextMenu Extensions (Piro), Flash Control, Greasemonkey, keyconfig, LastPass, MultipleTabHandler (Piro), OmniSidebar, RequestPolicy, SessionManager, Stylish (or User Style Manager, or both), SuspendTab (Piro), Tab Group Switcher, Tab Control, Tab Kit - Mouse Gestures, Vertical Toolbar, are we done yet… YouTube Flash Video Player ... finally.

    Where were we, oh yes, Firefox is the new Opera 12, until Vivaldi kicks it to the curb at least.

    Well except for, responsiveness, efficient memory use, actually releasing memory when pages/tabs/windows are closed.

    Crash71 --- Opera 5 - 12.17 R.I.P
    So it goes something like this, "upgrade" to Firefox from Opera 12, buy 8GB more RAM so you can actually use FF like Opera.



  • @The_Solutor:

    @Olleo:

    Actually kernel of OS/2, as far as I remember, became the kernel of Windows NT

    No this is not a 100% correct picture. Both OS2 2+ and NT 3.xx+ are based on thew work done together by MS and IBM, at the time of OS2 v1.x. But they are two independent products with very few commonalities.

    OS/2 was a development based on IBM-DOS with a 16 bit kernel using the weird x86 protected mode with all four privilege rings (made virtualization impossible back then), while Windows NT (now Windows 10) was created from scratch based on VMS concepts for a fictional machine named N-Ten and later ported to multiple 32 and 64 bit platforms (x86, Alpha, MIPS,PowerPC).

    There is no IBM code or work in Windows NT, otherwise IBM would have sued the hell out of MS after their exit out of the OS/2 joint-venture. The NT kernel was deliberately not created for the PC initially, so IBM would not get suspicious. The only thing that connects NT to OS/2, was rudimentary support for some OS/2 1.x command line applications in early releases to provide MS OS/2 customers with a migration path.

    Unlike Presto OS/2 was a dead end by design closely tied to the 80286 IBM AT and constricted by it. Few years later even IBM finally got that and moved to Linux (which was made from scratch, too, and ported to multiple platforms :) ).



  • @jtsn:

    OS/2 was a development based on IBM-DOS

    Until OS2 v2 IBM and MS cooperated. So IBM DOS and MS Dos shared a large part of the code, and OS2 . v1 was a joint project.

    There is no IBM code or work in Windows NT

    NT3.x has its roots on the work done for OS2 v.1 exacly like OS2 v2+

    otherwise IBM would have sued the hell out of MS after their exit out of the OS/2 joint-venture.

    Indeed IBM asked MS to change most of the NT APIs before the OS2 v.2 and the NT releases.

    BTW the OS2 legacy was still perceivable on the first NT releases. NT3.x was even able to read the OS2 filesystem and that was still possible even in the XP era trough the NT driver, while os2 retained the ability of running 16 bit DOS apps (natively) and the 16 bit win apps (trough the Win for OS2 environment).

    Unlike Presto OS/2 was a dead end by design closely tied to the 80286 IBM AT and constricted by it.

    OS2 was way less commercially successful than windows, but was all but a dead end project.

    It is still in use and sold today on some niche areas.

    you can still buy it here

    http://www.ecomstation.com/


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