What if privacy becomes history?


  • Vivaldi Team

    Watch Jon von Tetzchner in discussion with Warwick Ashford about the ongoing erosion of privacy online and what we should be doing about it.

    Click here to see the full blog post



  • Our privacy is being erroded, and we need companies to take a stand, including Vivaldi.

    Most people aren't aware of the practices that are taking place within these companies, or what's happening to their data, or the amount of data being collected. Soon, they will. Once they do, I can guarantee that it's not going to sit well with the public, and the malpractice, ignorance (and dare I say, EVILNESS) of these companies will fire back against them.

    This is when those companies that truly care about the privacy, security and rights of individuals will really shine.

    What I would like to see is for Vivaldi to become the new Firefox, in that it becomes a browser of not only innovation, but a browser (AND COMPANY) of privacy and security. Mozilla has really dropped the ball and have become corrupt. Those of us who care about our privacy and security (which is mostly everyone, except those who don't understand the importance or what privacy and security are) need more options, especially as companies that used to fight for consumers don't anymore.



  • I think that privacy in the network is currently a pretty illusion and practically impossible to maintain, not even using TOR is already 100% private, as shown by dozens of onion nodes that were eliminated by the NSA.
    Ok, the normal user can dispense with Google services, using to search the DuckDuckGo, or like me, Startpage, Diaspora instead of Facebook or Twitter, Tutanota instead of GMail, we can use P2P programs to send files, such as O&O File Direct, some VPN service to navigate, but all this at the end of the account remains as the only common sense and what we publish on the network.
    What browser we use, Vivaldi or Mozilla is a minor problem for our privacity



  • @catweazle said in What if privacy becomes history?:

    I think that privacy in the network is currently a pretty illusion and practically impossible to maintain, not even using TOR is already 100% private, as shown by dozens of onion nodes that were eliminated by the NSA.
    Ok, the normal user can dispense with Google services, using to search the DuckDuckGo, or like me, Startpage, Diaspora instead of Facebook or Twitter, Tutanota instead of GMail, we can use P2P programs to send files, such as O&O File Direct, some VPN service to navigate, but all this at the end of the account remains as the only common sense and what we publish on the network.
    What browser we use, Vivaldi or Mozilla is a minor problem for our privacity

    ^^ Exactly


  • Vivaldi Translator

    Jon states very good points. But allowing the users a choice is always better.
    That's why I believe Vivaldi should provide an access to Tor/I2P. That is really important for the privacy of the users.



  • We were against web-based software (as opposed to programs on your own computer) because it meant putting your data where anyone could see it, but companies like MS and Google would rather do what they want.

    If you want privacy, stuff has to be somewhere you have control over. And that's not on a server in Ireland (for Microsoft) ... or even Iceland.



  • @sgunhouse said in What if privacy becomes history?:

    We were against web-based software (as opposed to programs on your own computer) because it meant putting your data where anyone could see it, but companies like MS and Google would rather do what they want.

    If you want privacy, stuff has to be somewhere you have control over. And that's not on a server in Ireland (for Microsoft) ... or even Iceland.

    If you want privacy, you can't go online



  • @catweazle said in What if privacy becomes history?:

    If you want privacy, you can't go online

    That's like saying, "If you don't want to get burgled, don't leave your house."

    There are ways to provide some level of security, and laws to prevent misuse of users' data, just as there are locks for doors and windows and security cameras for the home. Just because it is difficult to protect oneself online does not mean that Vivaldi devs should not try to provide us with some useful anti-tracking tools.



  • @pesala said in What if privacy becomes history?:

    does not mean that Vivaldi devs should not try to provide us with some useful anti-tracking tools.

    Ideas to do this is on the devs screen f.ex. to prevent fingerprinting and other important countermeasures.



  • @pesala said in What if privacy becomes history?:

    @catweazle said in What if privacy becomes history?:

    If you want privacy, you can't go online

    That's like saying, "If you don't want to get burgled, don't leave your house."

    There are ways to provide some level of security, and laws to prevent misuse of users' data, just as there are locks for doors and windows and security cameras for the home. Just because it is difficult to protect oneself online does not mean that Vivaldi devs should not try to provide us with some useful anti-tracking tools.

    It was in response to saying not to use web applications but always programs installed on the PC.
    Naturally web programs are less private, but doing without them also does not solve the underlying problem, we are always exposed in one way or another, whether we use an online utility or use a social network like this one. Privacy in the network does not exist, regardless of what measures we take.
    You can be discreet to leave as little traces as possible, but it is not a matter of getting hysterical, as long as you do not live in North Korea.
    I know people who complain a lot about the lack of privacy in the network and then I see them on Facebook writing until when they are going to pee



  • The nightmare have already begun, first in China then everywhere else:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAesMQ6VtK8

    One app to rule 'em all.



  • @catweazle

    I know people who complain a lot about the lack of privacy in the network and then I see them on Facebook writing until when they are going to pee

    I like that view.
    This come from me who got banned by Facebook more than 4 times because I set my Facebook settings to not allow anyone or anything except choosen, including those Facebook partners. They deem me as suspicious person, based on their warning email.

    No Facebook for me. Not because I concern about security. But because I "suspiciously" won't share.



  • @dude99
    From that video what I could get is China do it better than anyone else.

    • They replace common international services, international angry. China make their replacement products better, now international jealous.
    • People of every country gossiping that their goverment spying on them. China do it better. They have bigger people & it's cover all. And of course, other goverment now jealous.

    I love that clean Corgi though.



  • What if Google blocks your access to your own documents?

    I keep backups on DropBox, but also on multiple USB drives in case I cannot access the Internet for some reason.



  • @gwen-dragon I have a gazillion ideas. Note that I was deeply involved in the early days of DNT. Jon is right, but it needs good tooling. And we have the legal tools now in the GDPR.

    There are still artifacts of the Google chrome behaviour in vivaldi that are nicely designed against privacy. E.g. if I'm in vivaldi://settings/content/cookies and I have activated all three options:

    • Allow sites to save and read cookie data (recommended)
    • Keep local data only until you quit your browser
    • Block third-party cookies

    Now if I switch off the first option (Allow sites...) and switch it on again, The setting is now default to switch OFF the second option (Keep local data...) This is clearly a violation of UX expectations in favor of more data collection.

    If only I would have time to go through all the settings. E.g. it will become important in the future to not only express DNT:1, but also to express DNT:0 to allow for personalisation. This is still in the chromium stage where the devs from Google tried to hide the functionality the best they could. A European browser with blessing for that functionality in Article 21 V GDPR should have a much better UX for DNT:0 and DNT:1, including the exception handling as described in the Tracking Protection expression Recommendation from W3C



  • @rigo I meant this one: https://www.w3.org/TR/tracking-dnt/ See also the current discussions around the ePrivacy regulation that goes even further.



  • @rigo

    Allow sites to save and read cookie data

    The only way (it seems) to make sure the option does work is to clear all "cookies & storage" 1st before we set this option on. True for all Chromium-based.

    it will become important in the future to not only express DNT

    DNT = Do Not Track?
    Google or anyone doesn't need to hide its setting. Seem fail attempt from privacy advocate side, unfortunately. No sites need to obey this setting.

    including the exception handling as described in the Tracking Protection expression Recommendation from W3C

    There you go. ONLY "Recommendation". W3C only standard to do stuff. No one forced to obey "Recommendation".



  • sorry, wrong thread



  • My main concern in this whole discussion about privacy is not that my data is everywhere, but that I don't know where my data is and who looks into it.

    Pandora's box was opened and we will not get the lid back on it. Privacy of normal people is de facto history and no legislation in the world will be able to change that, simply because anybody who wants to avoid a certain legislation can move easily to a country where those rules do not apply or where nobody enforces them.

    Instead of whining over spilled milk (our privacy - it is in the open and we will not get it back) we need make the best of it and enforce full disclosure on everyone (no matter if company or states) who stores, aggregates and uses the data. Full records of all activity on their side is what we need and it must be open to everyone without having to jump through burning hoops.

    Calling for governments to protect us from the government and people who lobby and pay them (not meaning taxes but the other stuff) does not sound like an idea that will ever work.

    The data is in the open, so make them available and usable for everyone, not only spies, sniffers, hackers (meaning the culprits), but literally everyone so that we at least have a fighting chance to vote with our feet.

    Browser manufacturers can't change anything in this situation - there are always the ISPs who not only can but eventually do the tracking and are even bound to do so in many if not most countries (data retention is only an euphemism for sniffing).


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Vivaldi Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.