Future - Vivaldi vs. Opera 12.



  • I was looking forward to Vivaldi will build on the good old Opera 12. Instead it's Chromium wrapped in a new coat. According to me it is therefore more screams from the world of browsers, with no future. Therefore, keep staying at the Opera 12. Dear developers, if you want to make a really excellent browser, take Opera 12, replacing the imaging core and continue where Opera 12 has ended. Simple, plain, good, do it.


  • Moderator

    You don't understand anything about browser engines, compatibility, or web development, do you?

    You just requested of Vivaldi developers that they climb Mt Everest in summer clothing with no oxygen.



  • Claudius, you are not forced to use Vivaldi.
    Use Opera 12. It exists! And it works like Opera.
    Opera 12 will have 100% features of Opera.
    Opera 12 is antique and struggling with most web appilcations and websites.

    Vivaldi is new, modernized and compatible for a modern web.



  • @Claudius:

    … keep staying at the Opera 12. Dear developers, if you want to make a really excellent browser, take Opera 12, replacing the imaging core and continue where Opera 12 has ended. Simple, plain, good, do it.

    In the first place, Opera ASA owns Opera 12. Vivaldi Technologies AS isn't Opera ASA, and copying Opera's code would be illegal.

    Second, Opera 12 is years-old technology now… there are solid reasons Opera ASA abandoned it and Vivaldi elected not to somehow clone it: it simply costs too much and the technical effort would be too great to keep it current in today's world.

    Third, free browsers are great for the user - they cost him nothing; but they cost the makers a pile of money to design and maintain, money that there are only limited avenues available for recovering. With limited money, costs have to be monitored very closely. So as a business, browser makers have to be as efficient as possible. Using an available rendering engine like chromium/Blink means a lot of development/maintenance costs can be avoided.

    Such realities may not give us a totally "custom" browser, but then the Internet world and its business realities are vastly different than the Wild-West days of Mosaic, Netscape, and early Opera. And with time, who knows what wonders Vivaldi's developers may produce? After all, many of them gave us old Opera...



  • You did not understand Claudius, alte Drachin :->



  • @toohoo:

    You did not understand Claudius, alte Drachin :->

    Yes, my dear Thom. Beeing a old franconian dragoness as you mentioned as "alte Drachin" ;)
    I may have misunderstood the old Claudius Browsericus.

    But i dont cross swords for old (and new) buggy Opera (disliked!) products.
    Yes, Opera Norway browser is more of a buffo opera or bad musical for me, because of many unsupported features and operating systems.



  • chrome/chromium is a dead end. a complete dead end.
    you cannot modify it to be useful. the ui is pure junk, it would have to be completely rewritten.
    it will never be as fast as opera. or as small. why is it 100mb again? what is all that junk?
    so so slow. in chrome/vivaldi i'm stuck watching the status bar crawl along like its 1997 again.
    wont even mention how sad firefox is now. more like diabetesfox. every time i use firefox i can hear my harddrive die a little more. the disk usage is insane , and will corrupt your harddrive faster than anything else.

    probably the best idea would be to take the webkit2 javascript engine-only and pop it into opera's old hole with some wrappers. not sure that would work. keep the old opera html engine (or use netsurf or something).

    webkit can not be saved. theres a reason why mac web browsing is a joke, its because it was made to be single tabbed. because macs didnt have left click. it was only saved because of multi-threaded processors.

    i was hoping this vivaldi would be different, but 36mb installer gave me pause, then i saw it was just chrome again.

    posted this using opera 12. (wish i could still use opera 6).

    (also wheres quick preferences in vivaldi? f12 i need f12! i need to disable javascripten on des flies!)

    i know, i know, this isnt opera asa. got it. but this is just another chrome.
    fool me once opera 16 (thinking opera will add features to chrome), shame on me, fool me twice (thinking vivaldi will add features to chrome)? shame on you.



  • How high are you people? Did you even look at the settings at all? Do you not realize this project is barely a month old, and it already has more inline features than Opera Next has? Did you even read the roadmap Vivaldi put forth for features to be added?

    Chromium wasn't the enemy with the last revamp of Opera, the enemy was Opera ASA. It wasn't that the features we loved from Opera couldn't be ported to Chromium or webkit - many already have been by Vivaldi. It's because Opera made a conscious decision to abandon us in favor of chasing the ignorant masses. Vivaldi is what Opera 15 should have been.

    You want to talk dead ends, nothing is more a dead end right now than Opera 12. Every time I start that browser I get a popup from Opera ASA telling me to upgrade. The axe is bound to drop soon on legacy Opera Sync, maybe as soon as this year. Incompatibilities with sites like YouTube and Facebook are already insurmountable.

    Having tantrums off of half-cocked first impressions solves nothing and only outs you as an ignoramus.



  • @RRR13:

    @terzaerian:

    Every time I start that browser I get a popup from Opera ASA telling me to upgrade.

    It's Opera. Just select the option to not remind you about the update. Don't know how? Then just ask!

    Also, your tone needs some toning down. This is not your only comment written in such a tone!
    Please calm down! I never reported people around here and I don't want to start with you, OK?

    The reminder no longer has an option to stay away for good - it comes back regardless.

    I match my tone to the attitude of the poster, and this weekend saw a bizarre influx of entitled users. There is nothing wrong with having needs and asking the developers to include them, but I bristle at folks who treat it as an ultimatum or insult the community or developers because things aren't up to their exacting standards yet. I'm fairly confident that a lot of these people come about because nobody had the good sense to tongue-lash them earlier and more frequently.



  • @terzaerian:

    Did you even read the roadmap Vivaldi put forth for features to be added?

    sure,

    mail - never used it
    sync - never used it
    nor have i used torrent, irc, or any of those half-baked browser features. i use seperate programs because all browsers crash a lot and i dont care to have corrupt irc, torrents and mail as well as my browser settings which i have to back up automatically using task scheduler.

    keyboard nav - yeah keyboard nav is great
    performance - in my opinion, you cant speed up chrome engine, it sucks.
    extensions - speeding adblock up would be nice.
    suggestions - i was making a suggestion into looking at different possibilities. licensing presto or whatever non-chrome lib available.

    if you dont want this suggestion, thats perfectly acceptable. its your browser.

    i looked at the vivaldi settings and it felt like a chrome advanced settings page plus added keyboard shortcuts.
    if you guys want chrome with opera features, thats fine too. just i am not a chrome guy.

    i want the smallest browser. with the default old classic windows ui skin, because it uses less resources than the xp or chrome or firefox skins.
    because i dont need transparency, tab thumbnails, widgets, screen effects or other features that steal my precious resources.

    thats why modern browsers retreat to using hardware acceleration, because they know they are KILLING the cpu with this junkbloat.

    i'm not demanding anything of vivaldi, nor am i insulting the community, nor claiming that a brand new beta browser should live up to any expectations. chrome was beta for years, i have no problem with that.

    what i have a problem with is the basic concept of chrome and every single fork of chrome has been a letdown. i wish vivaldi good luck.



  • @theg:

    suggestions - i was making a suggestion into looking at different possibilities. licensing presto or whatever non-chrome lib available.

    Presto is a mess, and things are changing too quickly now to keep it up, even with a team like Opera ASA has. That's why Opera ASA made the switch in the first place; where Opera ASA went wrong, however, was also deciding to jettison the power users which formed the community's foundation and stripping out the features they loved at the same time. Vivaldi is rapidly becoming what Opera 15 should have been from launch day.

    Also, why would you want Vivaldi to pay money to their direct competitors for a failing engine? It's insanity.

    @theg:

    i looked at the vivaldi settings and it felt like a chrome advanced settings page plus added keyboard shortcuts.
    if you guys want chrome with opera features, thats fine too. just i am not a chrome guy.

    Then you didn't look very hard. They already have alternative tab placement, which nobody else has right now. Every tech preview - heck, every weekly screenshot - adds even more features.

    @theg:

    i want the smallest browser. with the default old classic windows ui skin, because it uses less resources than the xp or chrome or firefox skins.
    because i dont need transparency, tab thumbnails, widgets, screen effects or other features that steal my precious resources.

    thats why modern browsers retreat to using hardware acceleration, because they know they are KILLING the cpu with this junkbloat.

    Again, what antique hardware are you running this on that this is a huge concern? I have a gimpy dual-core windows tablet with 2 gigabytes of RAM that has absolutely no issues running Vivaldi, the only limiting factor is connection speed.

    Yes, it would be wonderful if developers coded things more efficiently and iron-bound to standards on the web end but that's not the world we live in.

    You have to adapt, to a degree. Up until now, adapting also meant knuckling down and using whatever minimalist stripped-down trash Apple or Google forced down the chute, which is why Vivaldi is so special - it's a browser and group of developers swimming up stream and against the current to give us back features and control, and why it's insanely irritating to me when people demand the developers turn back the clock completely. That's impossible and it's abominably greedy to make that demand.

    @theg:

    what i have a problem with is the basic concept of chrome and every single fork of chrome has been a letdown. i wish vivaldi good luck.

    Do you intend to retreat to some part of the internet where it's 1994 forever? I've got some bad news, but those sites are becoming fewer and farther between. You could browse the latest on Space Jam, but that's got to get old quick. Facebook already doesn't work at all in Opera 12; Youtube as well. Forums software - such as this very board! - is already at the limit of what Opera 12 and Presto can endure in its current state.


  • Moderator

    I will never grasp the mindset of the man who walks onto a Tesla lot, berates them for not selling Ramblers, and declares all-electric propulsion is a dead end.

    If you like Ramblers, drive a Rambler. Oh, you say, Rambler was bought up by American Motors, which then went out of business, and the only ones for sale are worn out and out of date? Well, guess what? Tesla is still not going to make and sell Ramblers to make you happy. Yes, Teslas are going to include a bunch of components which, unlike your Rambler, cannot be maintained or repaired by the consumer. No, for now, unlike your Rambler, they are not going to have a 300-mile range. They will be Teslas, as Elon Musk intended. If you don't like them, don't drive one. But why are you harassing the people at their lot?

    Some people are not to be understood.



  • That's what drives me crazy about all this - Vivaldi is like a thunderstorm at the end of a long, long drought and everyone is complaining that it isn't raining champagne instead, while simultaneously failing to grasp that the rain will feed the grapes that will then be pressed to make their champagne.



  • @theg:

    mail - never used it, sync - never used it, nor have i used torrent, irc, or any of those half-baked browser features. … i was making a suggestion into looking at different possibilities. licensing presto or whatever non-chrome lib available. ... i want the smallest browser. with the default old classic windows ui skin, because it uses less resources than the xp or chrome or firefox skins.
    because i dont need transparency, tab thumbnails, widgets, screen effects or other features that steal my precious resources. thats why modern browsers retreat to using hardware acceleration, because they know they are KILLING the cpu with this junkbloat. … what i have a problem with is the basic concept of chrome and every single fork of chrome has been a letdown. i wish vivaldi good luck.

    There are a lot of things I want, only some of which I'll ever find. Reality moves at its own pace, not according to my wants. A perhaps sad reality is that this is not 2005, nor 2009, nor even 2012. Presto Opera is extinct for future development, for several reasons. It's not about to be licensed out by Opera; and even if it were, there would still be the development/site-compatibility problems that drove Opera to abandon it. All of which means the existing Presto browsers are increasingly becoming obsolete in multiple ways, day by day. Use it for as long as you feel you can, but at some point you will be forced by the simple onward march of reality to migrate elsewhere.

    And when you do eventually look elsewhere for a browser, you'll have to come to grips with all of the realities of the browser-design business as they exist at that time, not as they existed in years gone by or as you might want them to be. In all probability, at that time: browsers will be bigger; browsers will include features you may not like or need; browsers will most likely be multi-processed, if only for stability/security reasons; browsers will not necessarily have all the things you currently demand; browsers will demand more RAM and more CPU cycles; browsers will be optimized around certain web features or conventions you see absolutely no need for. But reality will dictate that you will have to select from what is available at that time, not from what you "want".

    I believe Vivaldi is making an honest, best-shot effort at giving power users the best, most complete, most configurable browser they know how to create, balanced against the realities of the Internet, browser business realities, and the browser marketplace at this point in time. Based on the team Vivaldi has assembled and their past demonstrated track record of innovation, coupled with the creative solutions and rate of progress I've seen thus far in their browser, I believe they have an excellent chance of ultimately hitting the target of my needs square on. If you can find a better, more promising browser approach elsewhere, then by all means check it out, try it, test it, advocate it, and inform others about it. I've been doing such a search for over 2 years - and Vivaldi is the best all-around, most promising answer I've yet come across.



  • @Blackbird:

    If you can find a better, more promising browser approach elsewhere, then by all means check it out, try it, test it, advocate it, and inform others about it. I've been doing such a search for over 2 years - and Vivaldi is the best all-around, most promising answer I've yet come across.

    you are right. good point. there is no other modern browser that does what i want.

    opera 12 breaks on more and more websites every day. its days are numbered.

    to answer your question , its not so much limited cpu that i'm complaining about, but limited battery life and disk thrashing.

    cheers, you've made me come around on the issue. still hate chrome though haha.



  • @theg:

    @Blackbird:

    If you can find a better, more promising browser approach elsewhere, then by all means check it out, try it, test it, advocate it, and inform others about it. I've been doing such a search for over 2 years - and Vivaldi is the best all-around, most promising answer I've yet come across.

    … to answer your question , its not so much limited cpu that i'm complaining about, but limited battery life and disk thrashing. ... cheers, you've made me come around on the issue. still hate chrome though haha.

    I do understand your concerns about chrome-derivative browsers; I have some myself. My suggestion is to keep politely and constructively voicing those specific concerns at the appropriate times and in the best ways you can. I believe Vivaldi is seriously focused on valid and clearly-explained user concerns. This is perhaps the first time in years that users are being conscientiously listened to by browser developers… so if there are major concerns to users, I believe they will become major concerns to Vivaldi's developers also. As to how resistant chrome-derivative architectures are to solving some of those user concerns, and as to how skilled Vivaldi's developers are in resolving them successfully, of course remains to be seen. But so far, things look to be off to a great start... ;)



  • Hi to all. After some time I looked at her post and watch how provoked a storm of controversy. That's good, it is not without controversy development. Some people may have misunderstood my original intention. I do not want to criticize Vivaldi. Conversely. Very, very big fan of him. Using the core of Chrome is a good idea, it works very well core. I know that you can not steal the old Opera House and did not want to. I know many of its deficiencies and had to frequently use Firefox, which is also excellent. All browsers but lacks crucial. That's what I wanted to draw attention and I wanted to point out why we loved the old Opera. The user base was very limited against Firefox. Old Opera was not for the BFU had many, many options and features not common stupid browser. My contribution is therefore to ensure that developers know that you appreciate their work and I support them. I just hope that they do not want to build a browser like Chrome, Firefox, etc. I would like to Vivaldi was for geeky browser



  • @Claudius:

    … I just hope that they do not want to build a browser like Chrome, Firefox, etc. I would like to Vivaldi was for geeky browser

    If I understand correctly what Jon has said and written on a number of occasions, building just another chromish browser is the last thing he's trying to do… he wants to restore user functionality and configurability as the design hallmarks of at least one browser in the marketplace. He believes there is a user need for such a design, and he believes a market presence can be created and maintained with such a design. And what Jon thinks does matter, since currently he's underwriting the Vivaldi effort - so he has genuine "skin in the game". He believes there's a need (and a market) for a browser that has configurability and integrated features in a class with Olde Opera - not surprising, since he was intimately involved in the creation of the Olde Opera.

    To reach a point similar to Olde Opera in Vivaldi's design represents a journey, and considering the time span for the development of Olde Opera, the Vivaldi journey may take quite a while to reach a similar point of design maturity. The Tech Preview versions are only the first steps on the journey... ahead lie betas, stable versions, and major continuing developmental evolution. But the developers are both gaining experience and expanding their skillsets as they continue incorporating and debugging the features currently unfolding - so I expect major functionality, configurability, and performance increases as time goes by.

    My concern, frankly, is not whether they want to build a browser like every other one in the marketplace, rather it lies in whether their economic costs can be sustained over the medium-term haul. If they can be, this browser should come to be all that Jon, the developers, and we users hope that it can.



  • Opera 12 is 100% HTML 5 compatible, and will render any markup or scripting to specification. The problem is that websites usually do not adhere to the HTML/XML/JS standards. They just code out, then test in whichever mainstream browser. Most of the time it was just Opera staff contacting the website owner and explaining how their website was out of spec and how they could fix it.

    I rarely come across a website that Opera 12 cannot render correctly.

    The majority of those websites are using stronger SSL encryption methods that Opera 12 doesn’t support. The rest are using browser detection and redirects, or are just simply written horribly.

    Using the Blink engine solves all those issues. Once Vivaldi adds customizable buttons/skins/colors, it will be pretty much indistinguishable from early Opera builds. I plan on porting the Opera9 skin once it becomes available.


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Vivaldi Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.