Menus are isolated from each other



  • I'm using Vivaldi v1.7.735.46 on Linux Mint MATE v18 for reference.

    Vivaldi's "Window" menu is totally fantastic, and far superior to the tab bar in all ways but one (* see below if interested) so I'm using Vivaldi with Settings / Appearance / Menu set to Horizontal Menu. I love the "Window" menu because in it I can easily identify each tab by its fully displayed title, whereas in the tabbar the really important information (the title text) is truncated, or even entirely crowded out, by the favicon (not at all important), the close button, and neighbouring tabs (Firefox specifies a minimum tab width and scrolls or wraps the tabbar when it fills). Vivaldi's "Window" menu addresses all this very elegantly.

    If I click the File menu, it opens (as expected) but if I move my cursor to Edit, I would expect the File menu to close and the Edit menu to open, but instead the File menu remains open. If I click Edit, I would now expect the File menu to close and the Edit menu to open, but instead the File menu closes. If I click Edit again, I would now expect the File menu to close and the Edit menu to open, and it does. Since Vivaldi subverts the titlebar to put the menubar inside it, this rapid clicking to use the menus was frequently firing the Windowshade functionality and rolling up the window (or it might fire the Maximise / Restore functionality under different settings / OSes) so I had to use Settings / Appearance / Window appearance / Use native window (which means native to the OS rather than Vivaldi's native style) to reinstate a menubar distinct from the titlebar. So now Windowshade isn't firing inadvertently, but the menus are still acting in isolation to each other. Dragging from File to Edit also leaves the File menu open rather than closing it and opening Edit when the cursor enters Edit's space. Furthermore, pressing Alt-F to open the File menu (as expected) then pressing Right arrowkey to close the File menu and open the Edit menu instead merely focusses the first entry in the File menu. It is as if each menu doesn't know the other menus exist and that each menu is part of an overall linked menubar which can share with and pass on to its neighbours. As if each menu is isolated from its siblings.

    Can any other Linux users confirm this behaviour? Has anyone found a fix for it?

    For what it's worth, the one thing the "Window" menu doesn't do that the tabbar does is:

    • I can right-click a tab in the tabbar and choose "Bookmark Tab" to instantly create a bookmark;
    • right-clicking an entry in the "Window" menu just takes me to that tab as if I'd left-clicked it;
    • with the Bookmarks panel open, I can drag the address into the bookmarks area to instantly create a bookmark;
    • unfortunately, right-clicking the body of the page and going to "Bookmark Tab" instead puts up a confirmation prompt rather than just getting on with it;
    • I cannot find the right entry in Settings / Keyboard to reassign Ctrl-D from Page/Bookmark to Tab/Bookmark to mitigate this.


  • @Mammal said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    unfortunately, right-clicking the body of the page and going to "Bookmark Tab" instead puts up a confirmation prompt rather than just getting on with it;

    I think this is intended behaviour because for users that collect a lot of bookmarks it would generate a mess if you couldn't assign your new bookmark to a specific folder.
    I just tested RMB on tab --> Bookmark Tab and it puts the new bookmark in the folder that was active when I saved a bookmark the last time.
    But I agree that it would be nice to have the possibility to make a shortcut for both - so you can decide which way you want to use it.



  • @Mammal said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    I'm using Vivaldi v1.7.735.46 on Linux Mint MATE v18 for reference.

    Vivaldi's "Window" menu is totally fantastic, and far superior to the tab bar in all ways but one (* see below if interested) so I'm using Vivaldi with Settings / Appearance / Menu set to Horizontal Menu. I love the "Window" menu because in it I can easily identify each tab by its fully displayed title, whereas in the tabbar the really important information (the title text) is truncated, or even entirely crowded out, by the favicon (not at all important), the close button, and neighbouring tabs (Firefox specifies a minimum tab width and scrolls or wraps the tabbar when it fills). Vivaldi's "Window" menu addresses all this very elegantly.

    Not a single one of your perceived tabbar "problems" is a problem to me, & i vastly prefer working with this rather than the drop-down menus. This is stated in no way to diminish your important legitimate preferences, but instead to illustrate one of V's core strengths [& design aspirations]; to be "infinitely" customisable & flexible so we can all find our own preferred workflows, rather than be constrained narrowly by an optionless browser. It's why so many of us love V.

    @Mammal said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    If I click the File menu, it opens (as expected) but if I move my cursor to Edit, I would expect the File menu to close and the Edit menu to open, but instead the File menu remains open. ... Can any other Linux users confirm this behaviour?

    It works for me exactly as you stated it should work.

    ................................................................................................................
    Tower & Lappy = Maui Linux 2.1 "Blue Tang" x64 Plasma 5.8.4.



  • @Mammal
    See the same behaviour as you described in Ubuntu.

    Is seeing the full tab title that helpful in identifying a tab, when it's only seen when the tab is opened?

    You may already use this but it isn't enabled by default.
    I find this setting most helpful for navigating tabs.
    settings > tabs > tab cycling > minimize active tab
    This lets you switch to your last open tab by left clicking on your current tab.
    Very useful when opening links having a look at then switching back to original page.
    Works best when you have new tabs to open as last tab.

    My advice would be make a bug report or use the vivaldi menu button and try the above tab settings.



  • zaibon said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    Mammal said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    unfortunately, right-clicking the body of the page and going to "Bookmark Tab" instead puts up a confirmation prompt rather than just getting on with it;

    I think this is intended behaviour because for users that collect a lot of bookmarks it would generate a mess if you couldn't assign your new bookmark to a specific folder.

    Ah yes, I can see how that usecase would benefit from the extra step now. I tend to just bookmark what I need to while I'm researching and then organise the bookmarks when I'm finished that step, discarding whatever turned out to not be helpful, and categorising what was good. I keep the bookmark sidebar panel open all the time currently.

    I just tested RMB on tab --> Bookmark Tab and it puts the new bookmark in the folder that was active when I saved a bookmark the last time.
    But I agree that it would be nice to have the possibility to make a shortcut for both - so you can decide which way you want to use it.

    It seems that many functions are listed in the keyboard page. I think probably it's an unintentional omission. It might be good to hit the key combination that involves the confirmation prompt when you know you need to place a bookmark in a new location, and hit the key combination for direct bookmarking when you don't.

    Steffie said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    Mammal said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    If I click the File menu, it opens (as expected) but if I move my cursor to Edit, I would expect the File menu to close and the Edit menu to open, but instead the File menu remains open. ... Can any other Linux users confirm this behaviour?

    It works for me exactly as you stated it should work.

    ................................................................................................................
    Tower & Lappy = Maui Linux 2.1 "Blue Tang" x64 Plasma 5.8.4.

    That's very reassuring, thankyou Steffie. Maybe SDDM/KDE handles this particular implementation of menus better than MATE is. I'll download it and check in a VM.



  • @Mammal said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    If I click the File menu, it opens (as expected) but if I move my cursor to Edit, I would expect the File menu to close and the Edit menu to open, but instead the File menu remains open. If I click Edit, I would now expect the File menu to close and the Edit menu to open, but instead the File menu closes. If I click Edit again, I would now expect the File menu to close and the Edit menu to open, and it does.

    This about the Horizontal Menu. Yeah that one didn't do "focus follow mouse" like its counter part, the Icon Menu. I usually use the Icon Menu, I forgot the Horizontal Menu act that way.
    Like you, I also use (like) Alt+F to open it & Alt+F~Esc~Esc to close it.


    • I can right-click a tab in the tabbar and choose "Bookmark Tab" to instantly create a bookmark;
    • right-clicking an entry in the "Window" menu just takes me to that tab as if I'd left-clicked it;
    • with the Bookmarks panel open, I can drag the address into the bookmarks area to instantly create a bookmark;

    I also wish, tab+page menu are accessible from main Window menu. So I can get rid tabs completely from browser view, you know, like Vimperator/Pentadactyl.

    By this I could Alt-W~Menu keyboard key~do whatever tab business.

    • unfortunately, right-clicking the body of the page and going to "Bookmark Tab" instead puts up a confirmation prompt rather than just getting on with it;
    • I cannot find the right entry in Settings / Keyboard to reassign Ctrl-D from Page/Bookmark to Tab/Bookmark to mitigate this.

    Instant create bookmark like on Tab menu. Maybe you could request this one.
    Almost identical like my previous answer, if just all menu could be merge.
    I think this one work like in Firefox though. Unfortunately, the Bookmark create popup placement list box is not comfortable to use.

    I don't know how mitigate this, sorry.



  • @Mammal -- Having read dLeon's reply to you, i feel i should clarify my setup, so you can best interpret my described user-experience wrt your needs. I use Native Window, & i do NOT use the horizontal menu bar [hate it; consumes screen real estate for no advantage]. I instead use the V-icon menu -- my described behaviour was specific to that.
    ................................................................................................................
    Tower & Lappy = Maui Linux 2.1 "Blue Tang" x64 Plasma 5.8.4.



  • @Steffie said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    @Mammal -- Having read dLeon's reply to you, i feel i should clarify my setup, so you can best interpret my described user-experience wrt your needs. I use Native Window, & i do NOT use the horizontal menu bar [hate it; consumes screen real estate for no advantage]. I instead use the V-icon menu -- my described behaviour was specific to that.
    ................................................................................................................
    Tower & Lappy = Maui Linux 2.1 "Blue Tang" x64 Plasma 5.8.4.

    The V-icon menu works "as expected" for me.

    @Mammal describes an issue with the horizontal menu. I see exactly what @Mammal reports. I think that, if the horizontal menu is provided, it should be conventional. If it's removed altogether, I wouldn't miss it.



  • I have now tested Vivaldi on a number of other platforms:

    • OSX 10.7 closes File and opens Edit simply by moving the mouse as normal, which is no surprise given Apple's role in WIMP
    • Windows 7 64bit closes File and opens Edit with one click of the mouse
    • Mint / Mate 18 64bit closes File and opens Edit with two clicks of the mouse
    • Linux elementary OS 0.4 closes File and opens Edit with two clicks of the mouse but it actually fires the maximise/restore functionality in the process as if the menubar is somehow being considered a part of the titlebar
    • CantankRus confirms the same behavior in Linux Ubuntu
    • I downloaded Maui 2.1 KDE but couldn't test it in VirtualBox because its installer insisted my VM was not plugged into a power adaptor :-(

    dLeon said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    I also wish, tab+page menu are accessible from main Window menu.

    By this I could Alt-W~Menu keyboard key~do whatever tab business.

    Yes! That would certainly be handy. I hadn't thought of that.

    • I cannot find the right entry in Settings / Keyboard to reassign Ctrl-D from Page/Bookmark to Tab/Bookmark to mitigate this.

    Instant create bookmark like on Tab menu. Maybe you could request this one.
    Almost identical like my previous answer, if just all menu could be merge.
    I think this one work like in Firefox though. Unfortunately, the Bookmark create popup placement list box is not comfortable to use.

    Agreed. I'll probably make a short list of feature requests in the end but I want to understand Vivaldi first, to make sure I'm not requesting something that already exists just in a place / format I'm overlooking.

    Steffie said in [Menus are isolated from each other]

    It works for me exactly as you stated it should work.

    Steffie said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    I use Native Window, & i do NOT use the horizontal menu bar [hate it; consumes screen real estate for no advantage].

    Ah, well as I said, "I'm using Vivaldi with Settings / Appearance / Menu set to Horizontal Menu" and "I had to use Settings / Appearance / Window appearance / Use native window" so if it works for you exactly as I stated it should work but under different configuration conditions, then it's not what I'm talking about here.

    This is stated in no way to diminish your important legitimate preferences, but I would think the menubar consumes screen real estsate for no advantage the way a steering wheel obscures view of the windshield for no advantage. Hiding the menu behind an inconspicuous button clears up the interface a little but it means (a) newbies have to hunt around to find it the first time and (b) once you've found it you always have to issue one extra click every time you want to do something. Just like if you were to hide the steering wheel inside the glove box, it would clear up your view of the street a little, but (a) newbies have to hunt around to find it the first time and (b) once you've found it you always have to lean over and stretch your arm every time you want to corner. For some people, that's a worthwhile tradeoff. I think my priorities for standard expectations and efficiency outweigh the value I place on aesthetics. Certainly when I ran Windows XP in 2001 on a 15" screen (and even now in VM windows) I crush WIndows Explorer's toolbar, location bar, and menubar into a single strip where only "File" is visible and the rest of the menu is accessibly only via the [>>] similar to the menu style you prefer. But that's because of limited real estate and a file manager that doesn't support tabs, so every file manager window has its own menubar. Since Opera enlightened the world to tabbing, a lot of that pressure is obviated. Since Vivaldi's "Window" menu is even better, I don't need to see the tabs at all. If I had to choose between sacrificing some screen real estate to a tab bar that shows me less and less the more I use it, or a menu bar that gives me direct access to every function in the program, I'll pick the menu bar. As you say, it's great that V caters to both of our workflows!

    aesouza said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    if the horizontal menu is provided, it should be conventional. If it's removed altogether, I wouldn't miss it.

    I know the controversial Gnome 3 camp has been moving away in this direction, and copped a lot of flak as a result. Innovation is always a trade-off. Change is always inevitable, but change isn't always progress. I like software that does things the normal way. And I also like software that does things the expected way while providing the option to explore a different approach. Software that dumps you into a radically different paradigm with a "my way or the highway" attitude may well have a conceptually great offering, but by raising the barrier to entry it's often not worth it. Not when you've got deadlines and alternatives that work as expected.

    So if the conventional menu were removed from Vivaldi, I'd probably go back to Pale Moon which has one, and see if I can hunt down an extension that works like Vivaldi's "Window" menu. I'm probably the only one though :-)

    CantankRus said in Menus are isolated from each other:

    Is seeing the full tab title that helpful in identifying a tab, when it's only seen when the tab is opened?

    You may already use this but it isn't enabled by default.
    I find this setting most helpful for navigating tabs.
    settings > tabs > tab cycling > minimize active tab

    I haven't tried that, but I certainly will give it a shot now you recommend it, thanks! I have Tab Cycling set to "Cycle in Tab Order" because that way Ctrl-Tab and Ctrl-Shift-Tab goes forward and backward through the list just like MDI, and that's something I can navigate easily. I have tried "Show Tab Cycler" but it seems to ignore the "Tab Cycling" setting immediately above it, and always operates as if you had selected "Cycle in Recently Used Order". I know that ought to make sense because Alt-Tab between programs uses the most recently used order; but for some reason applying it to MDI windows or tabs really throws me - my Ctrl-Tab and Ctrl-Shift-Tab always goes somewhere unexpected and I have to end up using the cursor.

    I agree that the full title of a tab is not so important when that tab is foremost and you can see the whole page. I was more meaning that in traditional horizontal tabs where you can't see much/any of the title, I can't identify any of the tabs (so have to Ctrl-Tab through them until I find the one I want). Vivaldi's "Window" menu displays all the tabs' titles, without making them the front tab in the process, and so I can look down the menu and pick exactly which tab I want to bring to the fore.


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