Free Speech and Right Speech



  • I am growing weary of the volume of off-topic noise on the blogs. It makes it difficult to focus on reporting issues and verifying reported issues when users post long lists of Feature Requests, or just rant about their pet issues not being resolved yet. It would be a lot better for everyone if the moderators just deleted all such posts on sight. After a while, users would learn that it's futile to post on the blogs unless it is relevant to that Snapshot as requested in the blog post. I understand the point that one needs negative feedback as well as positive feedback, but it's not constructive to be abusive and demanding when asking for bugs to be fixed or improvements to be made. I used to be an active helper on the OpenOffice forums, spending a lot of my time writing tutorials and helping users. Then one day I responded to this [url=https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12123]Wretched Writer[/url] rant with [url=https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12123&p=57221#p57221]some constructive criticism[/url],¹ and later removed the post to a hidden forum. The Admins decided that it was more important to allow free speech than to enforce any kind of basic forum etiquette. I left the forum and used my free time elsewhere. The point is, if you don't delete off-topic posts, rants, and abusive comments, but instead try to respond to it and pacify irate users, all that happens is that positive energies get dissipated instead of doing something constructive. It takes just one click to delete a rant, but at least half an hour to respond to it fully, and many more hours to debate the topic until everyone is fed up and goes elsewhere. ¹ Laurie never did return to post again on the forum, and neither did I.



  • It would be a lot better for everyone if the moderators just deleted all such posts on sight. After a while, users would learn that it's futile to post on the blogs unless it is relevant to that Snapshot as requested in the blog post.

    If this was implemented, all that would happen is that Vivaldi (and not the moderators) would get a reputation for deleting anything they don't like or is deemed criticism.

    The point is, if you don't delete off-topic posts, rants, and abusive comments, but instead try to respond to it and pacify irate users, all that happens is that positive energies get dissipated instead of doing something constructive.

    Surely it is easier to use a mental filter as you read the posts and concentrate solely on the actual problem being reported, not the "off topic noise". If this means mentally filtering out the entire post and ignoring it, then so be it.

    In worst cases of abuse, editing would be a preferred option to deletion of posts. There is always the option of blocking/banning repeat offenders when it becomes extreme.



  • @TbGbe:

    Surely it is easier to use a mental filter as you read the posts and concentrate solely on the actual problem being reported, not the "off topic noise". If this means mentally filtering out the entire post and ignoring it, then so be it.

    Before anyone can know if a post deserves a response, they need to read it. If it's off-topic that's only time wasted even if they do not reply. However, that is obviously not what happens in practice. One off-topic post or rant begets half a dozen others. A polite request to post in the right place often just generates more noise. A critical response starts a flame-war. If it was deleted on sight, no one would need to ignore it. Rude people who are ignored, complain about that, and post again and again until they get a response.

    You must have noticed that some people bump their threads if they get no response, and then they expect one from a developer, not just another user!

    @TbGbe:

    In worst cases of abuse, editing would be a preferred option to deletion of posts. There is always the option of blocking/banning repeat offenders when it becomes extreme.

    Editing of posts is far more time-consuming than deleting them, and is often worse as the person whose post was edited will then complain about censorship, when it's nothing of the kind. They are free to post their feature requests in the forum and report bugs via the bug-tracker.


  • Moderator

    There is some backstage discussion of the best way to address ill-mannered and destructive speech.

    We'll take your comments under advisement. One idea is a couple of pro forma warnings and then a ban. A couple of users have been cautioned by PM (politely) and then packed up and left on their own. Other comments have actually been removed without comment (they were too evil to be left), so of course you never saw those.

    We're still figuring out the best balance between encouraging vibrant discussion, and keeping the floors clean.



  • Perhaps a moderator stamp for removed posts would work. It's easy to use via Insert Note.

    Mod Edit: Your Post is off-topic here. Please use the Forum for Feature Requests

    Others seeing that stamp in several places might be deterred from posting on the blog in the first place.

    @Ayespy:

    There is some backstage discussion of the best way to address ill-mannered and destructive speech.

    Thanks. I hope you can work something out to reduce the noise.



  • @Pesala:

    Before anyone can know if a post deserves a response, they need to read it. If it's off-topic that's only time wasted even if they do not reply. However, that is obviously not what happens in practice. One off-topic post or rant begets half a dozen others. A polite request to post in the right place often just generates more noise. A critical response starts a flame-war. If it was deleted on sight, no one would need to ignore it. Rude people who are ignored, complain about that, and post again and again until they get a response.

    But that would require an approval process before the post appears. Wouldn't this result in multiple posts (thinking there had been an error with the first post)? Also, deletion encourages re-posting for the same reason.

    @Pesala:

    Editing of posts is far more time-consuming than deleting them, and is often worse as the person whose post was edited will then complain about censorship, when it's nothing of the kind. They are free to post their feature requests in the forum and report bugs via the bug-tracker.

    I wasn't proposing re-writing, just something like your Mod Edit suggestion ;)
    But again. this would require an approval process (and hence delay) before the post appears.

    The approval process for forums only applies to "new posters" whereas the blog does not have this filter (as far as I know) as the poster may well already be active in the forums; repeating their requests in the blog (where it is actually off-topic) because of the belief that that is more likely to be seen by "the devs".



  • They are discussing it, so the issue is resolved. They will know best what is workable with the code and staff that they have available.



  • I don't know what was discussed, but after several long and detailed posts attempting to explain why there's no roadmap, etc., the noise continues unabated with the usual culprit asking "When are finger gestures going to be ready?"

    It is obvious (to me at least) that the only solution is to delete off-topic posts on sight. Let people complain all they want about censorship then that will be a good reason to block them from posting feature requests and complaints on the blogs.


  • Moderator

    Forum mods and Blog mods are different people. There are several forum mods and hardly any blog mods, and It's my guess there are no blog mods on line at all right now.



  • @Ayespy:

    Forum mods and Blog mods are different people. There are several forum mods and hardly any blog mods, and It's my guess there are no blog mods on line at all right now.

    The blog mods are clearly averse to deleting anything at all, even offensive comments. Instead of removing the trolls. they threaten to remove those who criticise them.

    It is the same old story, I am afraid. Free speech is valued more than truthful and beneficial speech.

    @Ayespy:

    Other comments have actually been removed without comment (they were too evil to be left), so of course you never saw those.

    There are still plenty of evil comments remaining that I can see, and unless the blog mods are on duty 24/7 then a lot is sure to get through. Far simpler, therefore, to block the individuals who are likely to post evil comments.


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